Clutch not disengaging

M

mblommel

True Classic
I'm finally close to having my X back on the road. Today I was hoping to have it move under it's own power for the first time in about 6 years. Unfortunately my clutch seems to be giving me some problems. Here's the rundown:

  • 1300cc engine, 4 speed transmission
  • Gearbox goes into all gears and reverse with engine shut off
  • Car will NOT go into any gear with engine running and clutch pedal depressed
  • new clutch and pressure plate
  • new master and slave cylinders
  • clutch arm actuation is about 1 1/8"
  • gearbox was gone though by a friend familiar with rebuilding manual transmissions.
  • clutch pedal goes to the floor with no effort, even though I've bled the hydraulic system about 5 times. no apparent leaking from the hydraulic system and I"m pretty sure no air in the system.

I'm not sure what to check next without pulling the trans. The only thing I can think off is that I put the friction disk in backwards. This car does have a very light aluminum flywheel that I have never seen before, but accepts standard clutch and PP (which I sourced from MWB). Any insights on what it may be? I don't think the release arm is bent.
 
Dumb questions follow:

Was the release bearing properly installed? Ask Jeff about that :whistle:
Was the bolt in the release fork properly put into the release shaft?
Have you tried moving the release arm by hand? If you can move it more than a very small amount then one wonders if either of the above are issues

Could the flywheel have been so thinned that it has moved the pressure plate away from the release bearing such that it can't actuate it?

Have you adjusted the nut properly on the slave cylinder so that it is pushing from the correct point?


You mention the pedal going to the floor, does it stay on the floor?
 
Yeah, that Jeff guy is pretty stupid.:excited: Upside down T/O bearing, what a good story.
How can you have 1 1/8" travel at the slave rod with a pedal that goes to the floor with out effort?
If the slave rod is moving over an inch, I'd say something is a miss inside with clutch/flywheel/PP
 
Flywheel & Pressure Plate Mis-Match?

There are two generations of 1300 flyheels and pressure plates, with each changing thickness such that the combinations were the same as installed. So, a thin flywheel was used with a thick pressure plate, and vise-versa. If a thin pressure plate is installed with a thin flywheel, the slave cylinder will not have enough travel to disengage the pressure plate, which sounds like it might be the issue. Check for excessive pedal travel before the tension of engaging the pressure plate.
 
What brand pressure plate and disc did you get? Seems like an easy part to make but a good 1/3 of the units we sell are to replace some EBay special that didn't work at all.

Find a friend with a bore scope you can borrow. Feed it into the bell housing and watch the throwout bearing while someone depresses the pedal. A bearing that moves means your pressure plate isn't working as it should. If the bearing does not move then the bolt that holds the fork to the pivot rod must be broken or missing.
 
clutch probs

first, does the pedal return when you release it?
second, no air in the system? they are tricky to bleed.
third, I have read on the forum that if the t/o bearing is installed 180 out, it can cause problems.
lastly, it is hard to install the disc backwards.... been done but, the springs interfere with the flywheel and make the install of the p/p hard.
maybe the flywheel needs a different style clutch being lightened and all.
man, I feel for you if the tranny has to come back out.
I put some threads on here on reverse bleeding the clutch, if they can't be found, e mail me and I will try to explain before you yank the tranny.
oh yea.... is the clutch "factory as such" or a sach's or something else we saw a lot of problems in the 128's with aftermarket clutches
breaking the cable due to excessive pedal pressure.
also if you do have to pull the tranny, check the relation of the fork and bolt that holds it on. I have seen them twist or the bolt break and it all looks normal. the release fork should 40 degrees off center to the shaft.
you might want to talk to Rapunzel too she has magical mechanical skill we can only dream about.
mikemo90*aol.com
 
Hey guys, thanks for the ideas.

I could have possibly installed the TO bearing backwards. I guess that's something I'll have to check. Also pretty sure that I bolted the clutch arm to the shaft properly. I like the boroscope idea.

I sourced all of my parts though Midwest Bayless, so I'm pretty certain the quality of the components was top notch. The clutch pedal goes to the floor and stays there. It moves the slave cylinder the full extension. I have both the under-dash and the clutch lever springs in place. I'm fairly certain the clutch is properly bled as I have done this operation about 5 times using various methods, most recently using my recently accquired deluxe Motive "black label" pressure bleeder. However, I can move the clutch arm a very significant amount just by hand. It seems the only resistance I"m experiencing is the clutch lever external spring.

For reference here's a photo of the OLD friction disk and PP that I took out:

7777289966_d4d636bce3_z.jpg


7777291886_bf2c29df69_z.jpg


Here's an image of my aluminum flywheel before it was cleaned up. It was dirty but the steel friction surface was in good shape and needed only about .003" removed when I had it surfaced.

7777293950_6cf20742e0_z.jpg


I had Matt at Midwest help me with ensuring I had the correct clutch parts to match up with the flywheel based on my old parts.

Thanks for the ideas.

-Mike
 
Backward (upside down) TO still worked in my case (for many thousands of miles) just didn't engage until the very end of it's travel ability. If you adjusted the slave rod/fork lever in a normal fashion with out the thing being on the extreme end of the rod you're probably okay with TO bearing.
 
mblommel said:
However, I can move the clutch arm a very significant amount just by hand. It seems the only resistance I"m experiencing is the clutch lever external spring.

-Mike
Click to expand...

This suggests something is amiss inside the housing, the arm is not attached to the shaft or the pressure plate is just too far away to actually be engaged by the TO bearing. It takes a lot of force to move the springs in the pressure plate. Maybe the TO Bearing came off?
 
kmead said:
This suggests something is amiss inside the housing, the arm is not attached to the shaft or the pressure plate is just too far away to actually be engaged by the TO bearing. It takes a lot of force to move the springs in the pressure plate. Maybe the TO Bearing came off?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm thinking that something in the bellhousing is amiss. I'm going to try going down the boroscope route to find out if I can actually see where I went wrong.:sad:
 
I'm still confused if the pedal goes to the floor with no effort and stays there you have hydraulic issues, if the slave is still being actuated it must be by air and thus no force and if it is moving over an inch that way it must certainly not be contacting the clutch components right? Might be you have two problems. Hydraulics not happy (air in the line most likely (or bad master) AND a mis-assembly in the bell housing.
 
clutch

sounds hydraulic to me.
time to reverse bleed.
have someone push the pedal as you have your finger over the open bleed screw. every two pumps, check the res for fluid, as they are tiny.
you should get a full pedal in about three pumps, pulling the pedal up every time. air can be compressed, fluid can't.
fiat never made an oversize seal kit for anything hydraulic. cheaper to replace than re-build.
mikemo90*aol.com
 
Helper spring

jvandyke said:
I'm still confused if the pedal goes to the floor with no effort and stays there you have hydraulic issues, if the slave is still being actuated it must be by air and thus no force and if it is moving over an inch that way it must certainly not be contacting the clutch components right? Might be you have two problems. Hydraulics not happy (air in the line most likely (or bad master) AND a mis-assembly in the bell housing.
Click to expand...

I think that the helper spring on the clutch pedal is helping a little too much. Depressing the clutch pedal absolutely moves the slave with no delay. However, when the pedal reaches the point where the spring transitions from returning the pedal to the up position to helping move it towards the floorboard there is no resistance to act against the spring except for the much weaker spring attached to the transmission clutch arm. I can actually move the transmission arm with just my hand. The only resistance I can feel is from the return spring there. I agree there could also possibly be a hydraulic issue, but there is no way to really know until it has something to act against.

Luckily for me the tool crib at work has a really nice video borescope that they are more than happy to check out to me. So, hopefully in the next day or two I'll be able to get a better look at what is actually going on down in the bellhousing when I actuate the clutch arm.

Thanks for the continued support.
 
mblommel said:
I can actually move the transmission arm with just my hand.
Click to expand...

If you are saying that you can move the clutch operating arm thru its full range of motion with just your hand providing the power, no need for the borescope.....just go ahead and make plans to drop the trans. Any condition that would result in being able to move the clutch operating arm by hand can only be the result of the physical failure of a part located in the clutch assembly and it will of course require the removal of the trans to gain access to these parts.
 
Check the clutch release bearing fork bolt and all related to the shaft and clutch release bearing.

When the clutch is operation properly, the external clutch shaft arm can be compressed a few mm or small fractions of an inch by hand... unless it is the hand of a super human.

While it is apart, check the clutch shaft bushings They are often shot and will need to be replaced. Stock bushings are plastic, bronze flange bushings can be installed if the holes are modified as required. This fix cures a host of ills with the clutch shaft.


Bernice



Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
If you are saying that you can move the clutch operating arm thru its full range of motion with just your hand providing the power, no need for the borescope.....just go ahead and make plans to drop the trans. Any condition that would result in being able to move the clutch operating arm by hand can only be the result of the physical failure of a part located in the clutch assembly and it will of course require the removal of the trans to gain access to these parts.
Click to expand...
 
This flywheel has holes for 10mm dowel pins..

Who was the manufacture?


Bernice


mblommel said:
Here's an image of my aluminum flywheel before it was cleaned up. It was dirty but the steel friction surface was in good shape and needed only about .003" removed when I had it surfaced.

7777293950_6cf20742e0_z.jpg



-Mike
Click to expand...
 
Seems like that's a strong candidate for trouble though. Weird flywheel that needs tweaking to be compatible with everything else? 6lbs? that's nuts.
 
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