Alfa Romeo V6 or SAAB b204 ?

Rupunzell

Bernice Loui
In the not too distant future, the Scorpiacarlo will come out of storage and begin as a project car.

A different engine/transaxle is a given. The choice will be either:

Alfa Rome 3.0 liter V6 with matching transaxle from the 164..

or

SAAB b204 turbo with matching transaxle.

While the Alfa V6 has been done more than once and in keeping with being Italian. This engine is quite legendary in it's own way, so good that Cosworth wanted to purchase the production rights, production tooling en all for Cosworth to produce a race V6 with it.

The alternative SAAB b204 turbo is much lower cost and has extreme performance potential built in as delivered. It has all the proper performance specifications and quality bits already built in as made.

Both are about 200Bhp, 200 lb/ft stock tune.
The b204 is proven to be reliable at 500+ Bhp, 450 lb/ft with a bigger turbo, modest stock ECU tweaks and stock engine internals. This is limited by the gear box, not the b204.

Suggestions.. comments...


Bernice
 
Just speaking visually...

I've got to go with the Alfa. That is a beautiful motor, especially with a polished intake.

Of course I have no idea what the Saab looks like, but I know the Alfa will look right in a Scorpion.

Pete
 
I would go with the SAAB...

Not that I have anything against the Alfa, but I think it will be more heavy and if I am not mistaken, slightly older as well.

The Timing belt tensioner is always a pita on the Alfa.

Plus, it has been done a number of times...

Just my thoughts.
 
Saab Motor

The motor your are talking about, isn't it out of the 9000? if so I thought it was a SAAB/Lancia motor? I was thinking of doing the same thing. Keep us up to date on your progress with lots of pics.
 
My vote goes to the B204 SAAB engine.

My daily driver has the B205 engine...great engine...lot of possibilities with the software.
 
The engine power output is limited by the gear box to about 485 lb/ft. At that point, the gear box stock simply cannot handle the torque, even the uprated 6 speed is seriously challenged by this engine tuned up.

The SAAB b204/b234 has become a engine swap favorite due to it's power output capability, tough durability and low cost due to the ability of the stock engine being capable of tuned up to these insane power levels.

This same engine has won two LeMons races.

The Alfa Romeo V6 has won more than a few LeMons races.. (anyone who says Italians build fragile mechanicals have no clue).

The current b234 in my 9000 turbo has 375,xxx miles on it...

Video on a B205 worked on by Nick at Genuine SAAB, 710 Whp...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toGQZ5VvLYs"]Saab B205 62mm Dyno Run 710whp - YouTube[/ame]


Bernice


My vote goes to the B204 SAAB engine.

My daily driver has the B205 engine...great engine...lot of possibilities with the software.
 
In the not too distant future, the Scorpiacarlo will come out of storage and begin as a project car.

A different engine/transaxle is a given. The choice will be either:

Alfa Rome 3.0 liter V6 with matching transaxle from the 164..

or

SAAB b204 turbo with matching transaxle.

I'd say go with the Lancia-SAAB combo. There is some history between these two companies with the Lancia Thema and SAAB 9000 (Yeah, I know 164 and Croma too), along with the rebadged Lancia Delta (SAAB-Lancia 600). Plus, a Beta Montecarlo running a intercooled-turbo 16v 4 will be pretty darned awesome.

Please count me in for helping work on this, whichever engine you decide to go with! :guitar:

-ryan
 
Last edited:
That is fun to see, Bernice.

My engine output is nowhere close to that.
Still have the original pistons internally, so I keep it below 300bhp.
 
I just have questions.

How much do the total drivetrains weigh?
Will the drivetrains fit? How much modification will be needed to install the drivetrain?
How much heat will the turbo engine and intercooler generate?
The Alfa swap has been done so you should be able to get some idea of how well that swap performs and how difficult the swap is to do.
How many other changes will need to be made for the car to be safe to drive with that much power (brakes, shift linkage, suspension, suspension, etc)?
What is the total budget in dollars and time for the swap?
As you always say, what is the intended use of the car?

What do you want out of this project?

DaveR
 
im putting a 6g72 from a 3000gt in my scorpion, 250hp n/a and earily over 500 in twin turbo form
 
The road for this project will be a long one..

Initially, #209 will need to come out of storage and every part, system revised, replace or rebuilt before it can be put back on the road with it's original engine/gearbox.

Then there will be a number of improvement projects to deal with the problem brake system, up grade the suspension, electricals sorted and etc.

After # 209 is nicely back on the road as a daily driver, then the engine/gear box project can begin.

Yes, the SAAB b209 and F25/f35 ger box will fit, it is nearly identical in size and weight to the Fiat twin cam and Lancia Gear box. Difference being the turbo and associated cooling and engine management systems.

One nice feature of the Scorpiacarlo is the bolt in engine mounts which allows great flexibility in engine /gear box choices. I do believe the Fiat/Lancia engineers designed in these bolt in engine mounts knowing different engine / gear box configurations are to be offered. It is also known that this chassis was originally designed for a V6 between 150 to 200 Bhp. It was due to the first oil crunch that prevented the original V6 from being installed. It is very possible for this Lancia to be a replacement for the Dino as the two cars are far more similar than different. This was my rational for making the Alfa Romeo V6 as a possible choice. This was the engine / gear box this Lancia chassis was intended to have orginally.

With the SAAB b204, it is an extension of the relationship between Fiat/Lancia and SAAB which resulted in the SAAB 9000, iMO one of their very best offerings and designs ever offered by this joint venture. SAAB engines are excellent bits of engineering, design innovation and production in so many ways. The engine and gear box in real SAAB's are some of what makes them what they are. Their durability and ability to be up rated is simply amazing for what they cost in any production engine / gear box combo. What other car company took a few of their cars directly off their production line and ran them to world speed / endurance records twice... to prove and test for durability / reliability and learn more about their creations.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgf3c7WbQoQ"]Saab 900 Talladega Challenge 1996 - YouTube[/ame]

Over the years, I have watched Ken Haven wrestle with the Turbo beast. From cooling problems, engine oil problems, electronic engine management system problems and more with installing a turbo engine into this chassis.. Yet, the results are pretty amazing.

The idea is to get about 200 bhp / 200 lb/ft of engine power with a good gear box into this chassis with reliability, drive-ability as prime design goals.

At this point in time, I'm leaning more towards the SAAB b204 engine & F35 gearbox even if that Alfa Romeo V6 is one of my all time favorite production V6s put into production.


Bernice




I just have questions.

How much do the total drivetrains weigh?
Will the drivetrains fit? How much modification will be needed to install the drivetrain?
How much heat will the turbo engine and intercooler generate?
The Alfa swap has been done so you should be able to get some idea of how well that swap performs and how difficult the swap is to do.
How many other changes will need to be made for the car to be safe to drive with that much power (brakes, shift linkage, suspension, suspension, etc)?
What is the total budget in dollars and time for the swap?
As you always say, what is the intended use of the car?

What do you want out of this project?

DaveR
 
Other aspects

To me, it would depend on what the goals are.
Is is only facts and figures, hp, torque, weight, reliability?

Or does "fun" play into the eqation?
high rpm?
sound?
feel?
spirit?
personality of the engine?

To me, these factors make the character of the engine (and the rest of the car) and really make a difference in how much I like a car.

I really enjoyed your explanations of the design shortcomings of the Miata engine. This finally answered my questions why the Miata engine is not fun like the X engine is fun.

In the same way, I would choose an engine swap largely based on how much fun the new engine will be.

Power alone makes happy only for a while.
Then you want more power.
An engine with a lot of personality makes me happy without increasing boost every month. :)
 
The "Fun" factor is definitely part of why these alternative engine/transaxle choices.

The Alfa Romeo V6 is very much a "fun" engine to drive. It has a lot of personality and enough power to meet the goal and what this chassis was originally intended to have. This direction would make this Lancia Chassis very much into a more modern Dino with very similar sounds, personality and on road dynamics. What the vast majority of car folks many not know or every understand is the Lancia MonteCarlo /Scorpion is really a replacement for the Ferrari V6 Dino.. even if Enzo / Fiat never branded the Dino as a Ferrari. Still it remains one of their best road cars to date partly due to it's size and lack of overly complex modern add ons.. Very much pure sports car in every way.


The SAAB choice appeared later after I got a 1998, 900se with a B204 and 5 speed for daughter. The more I drove it, the more and more I like this engine / transaxle. I revs right up to 7,000 RPM with nice response, smooth, good torque with nil turbo lag. In the 900se chassis, this engine will deliver mid-30 mpg fuel consumption at a steady 70 mph along with it's sporty personality. Beyond this, they are common, well supported for parts and performance upgrades if desired. Note on the B204 con rod to stroke ratio, it is 1.9 with a 90mm cylinder bore which partly explains why it revs the way it does with good burn efficiency.

I cannot say this for the B234 in my 9000 turbo which is a much lower reving, much higher torque engine than this B204 and no where near as fun as the B204.

So there you have it. The engine is pretty much the heart of a car, the chassis it's soul and spirit.

Been working on the 74' recently as time permits. What is most interesting is to see we are headed in the same direction for where my 74' is likely going to be. In time, it will get a 1600cc big valve engine very similar to the one in your 74' except it will have an Abarth cam, about 10.5 to 1, Wiesco reduced skirt pistons, SCAT con rods and etc..

The transaxle will also have the 3.8 ratio as the 1600cc engine should be a nice match to this given the stock gear ratios.

This engine is to be built. Before this, the ex LeMons race engine will go in with a stock 5 speed.

None of this will happen until the chassis is completely sorted out. New bushings all around, adjustable struts, brake up grade and all that.

With the 1600cc engine in this chassis, it will be plenty fast and plenty fun for a back roads on a sunny day car.

Bernice






To me, it would depend on what the goals are.
Is is only facts and figures, hp, torque, weight, reliability?

Or does "fun" play into the eqation?
high rpm?
sound?
feel?
spirit?
personality of the engine?

To me, these factors make the character of the engine (and the rest of the car) and really make a difference in how much I like a car.

I really enjoyed your explanations of the design shortcomings of the Miata engine. This finally answered my questions why the Miata engine is not fun like the X engine is fun.

In the same way, I would choose an engine swap largely based on how much fun the new engine will be.

Power alone makes happy only for a while.
Then you want more power.
An engine with a lot of personality makes me happy without increasing boost every month. :)
 
Upon reading the title, my answer came easily: the Alfa V6. How obvious can it be?

Then you take the time to remind me how well Saab was doing developing turbos, they really led the way for a long time. And certainly the cheaper engine that gives similar performance is a strong argument.

Matching the original engine but really making performance is attractive.

Still, I like a V6 over a 4banger. It just seems to me that Ferrari and 4 cylinder do not fit together. But Ferrari had some glorious V6 mid engined cars, of which the Montecarlo was almost one.

You have a difficult decision. I envy you the choice.
 
Upon reading the title, my answer came easily: the Alfa V6. How obvious can it be?

Then you take the time to remind me how well Saab was doing developing turbos, they really led the way for a long time. And certainly the cheaper engine that gives similar performance is a strong argument.

Matching the original engine but really making performance is attractive.

Still, I like a V6 over a 4banger. It just seems to me that Ferrari and 4 cylinder do not fit together. But Ferrari had some glorious V6 mid engined cars, of which the Montecarlo was almost one.

You have a difficult decision. I envy you the choice.

It is an interesting story to me because I have cars that have variations of both of these engines. One is a Saab 900 Turbo with the 16v 2.0L turbo inter-cooled inline-4, the other is an Alfa 75/Milano with the 12v 3.0L V6. The Alfa's engine is definitely the nicer one to look at, and the sound it makes is music. I have to admit though, that for pure fun, the Saab Turbo still puts a grin on my face after owning this car for 15 years. Having a Montecarlo/Scorpion with that engine would be brilliant.
 
It is an interesting story to me because I have cars that have variations of both of these engines. One is a Saab 900 Turbo with the 16v 2.0L turbo inter-cooled inline-4, the other is an Alfa 75/Milano with the 12v 3.0L V6. The Alfa's engine is definitely the nicer one to look at, and the sound it makes is music. I have to admit though, that for pure fun, the Saab Turbo still puts a grin on my face after owning this car for 15 years. Having a Montecarlo/Scorpion with that engine would be brilliant.

Cheaper engine to source, better gas mileage, almost the same power.

Will components for Saab engines continue to be available?
 
Cheaper engine to source, better gas mileage, almost the same power.

Will components for Saab engines continue to be available?

Even when Saab was going through bankruptcy, parts for the older cars were plentiful. Now that Saab Automobiles is reborn and Saab Automobile Parts AB is its own entity, parts for the newer cars are being churned out.

There are whispers that if the auto business does well, they will buy the Parts business back from the Swedish Govt. Anyway, I don't see any issues at all for parts needed for Bernice's engine choice.
 
Lancia Thema 1.e. Turbo conversion

So, in line with the motor topics in this thread, I have just started out on a conversion of my '87 model X1/9, and bought the motor above from a rear-ended '87 Thema Turbo. The SAAP 9000 and the Alfa 169 have a lot in common with these Thema's, since these three companies worked together on the production planning for cost benefits at the time.
I am doing this conversion, whatever it takes. Body is very sound, (we don't have rust problems on cars here) and I now need to do all the measurement/cutting, strengthening etc.
Anybody done any similar work, or know of someone?
 
Back
Top