More performance for the F.I. 1500?

Now I may be getting a little ahead of myself, but I will be performing an engine rebuild on my fuel injected 1500 this winter and was wondering if there is anything I can do to get a little more power out of the engine while retaining the stock fuel injection setup. I am not looking for any drastic increases, but rather something to pep it up a bit.

I have the capability and tools to perform some porting and blueprinting of the head, but will the stock fuel injection take advantage of the modifications?

How about an exhaust system? Will deleting the catalytic converter offer any gains?

How about cam timing?

Just thinking ahead a little bit.

Hello, you could always Turbo it as I did. If you go mild, then the IHI RBH5 will work with stock ECU, injectors, and harness and is period correct for FIAT. It will produce 130 to 150hp in stock form. Cheers,:jedi::jedi::jedi::jedi:

Tempting, but I'm looking for something to maybe make an extra 10-15 HP without really changing the look of the engine bay, and without a big investment. For example, I need to perform a rebuild and I was thinking if I need new pistons, investing in a higher compression ratio instead of the stock parts would net me a HP gain, but once again I want everything to work with the stock F.I. setup. This is the approach I want to take, nothing drastic but a general massage and tweaking of the existing engine while maintaining driveability and a mostly stock look.

Pistons to bump the CR, a different head to get rid of the decompression recess to bump the CR. These changes will raise the hp and torque due to higher static CR and wont affect ECM operation if you limit the CR to around 9.5 to one max

Externally a factory twin out exhaust manifold and associated front pipe will nett about 8hp, probably the best bang for buck, Front pipe will need adaptation or modification from an existing item from another model, new twin out manifolds are all over ebay in europe...like this one http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/131506649698?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

SteveC

Higher compression Pistons will net the 10 to 15 hp you are looking for. And to hedge your bets, delete the stock exhaust and add a hi flow muffler no cat (if no emissions testing) and your goal will be met at minimal cost. I rebuilt mine with 20 over piston and rings (approx. 1530cc) and kept the stock compression due to being Turbo'd, I did however delete the cat and muffler and replaced with a custom stainless steel exhaust. The power of the engine off boost is quite good. Cheers,

Yes you can work with the stock FI

Crusader sounds a lot more well informed than myself, but here is what I I think I know.

Anything you can do to improve the engine's breathing will provide an improvement. So valve work, a better cam and a header will show improvements.

I have an 85 X with a MWB performance head (35/75 cam) and a long tube Vick's header that deletes the cat. Even this is not an inexpensive set up. It still isn't a powerful car, but it has a noticeable power increase compared to a stock X.

Beautiful setup Jim.

JimD said:

Crusader sounds a lot more well informed than myself, but here is what I I think I know.



Anything you can do to improve the engine's breathing will provide an improvement. So valve work, a better cam and a header will show improvements.



I have an 85 X with a MWB performance head (35/75 cam) and a long tube Vick's header that deletes the cat. Even this is not an inexpensive set up. It still isn't a powerful car, but it has a noticeable power increase compared to a stock X.

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Very nice!!! Here is my setup.

Crusader said:

Very nice!!! Here is my setup.

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Hey Beezee, just something further to consider. If you r rebuilding the motor, does it really need boring? If not, over size rings may do. If it does, stock oversize pistons are considerably cheaper than performance. An IHI RHB5 turbo runs about $300 US. With a stock 1500cc all you need is a split oil feed (drilled cube will do) and an extra coolant line into the turbo. Oh, the only other fabrication is the oil dump piping into the pan from the turbo. Now, if you acquire an Uno 1300 exhaust manifold (approx. $100 US), the turbo bolts right on without having to manufacture a plate to hold it. If you Che k costs, turbo option is actually cheaper and much more bang for your buck. Things to consider, cheers,

Crusader, you make some really good points. I have a spare motor, so maybe the turbo route would be something I could perform with the spare motor and keep the original motor stock. Anyway, I have lots of time to think about it before I strip everything down this fall. If you have some details of the parts you used, where you got them, and perhaps some basics of your conversion I would like to hear about it.

A header combined with the weight loss of the factory cast bits gets you the ponies you seek. Alas like crusader said turbo is cheap and 130-150 HP is enough pep for the $$.

Do not recommend a turbo on a stock engine & EFI. The Bosch L-Jetronic EFI system is simply NOT designed for a turbo.

There are SO many gear heads that DIY turbo and grenade the engine at LeMons racing in short time.

Still this fantasy never seems to die.


Bernice

Hi Bernice. We have an air/fuel gauge installed and the engine starts leaning out a bit at around 5200rpm. As we have just rebuilt it, I have not pushed her past 5500 rpm. We have also modified the fifth injector in order to handle fuel delivery above 4000rpm. She runs a bit rich at idle, but it seems to be a fair trade. Also, there are several folks on here running turbos on their 1500's without Megasquirt systems or the like. I do realize that these engines where not designed for turbos, although the IHI turbo used in Fiats, Isuzus, Subarus, etc. Has proven it self as a reliable small turbo in it's stock form of .86 bar. Is it possible to detonate, sure, any engine is suseptible to running lean. Hopefully we are solid enough like others here. Wish us luck. Cheers,

One of my other cars is SAAB turbo for good reasons. Turbos can be great if exacting engine management is properly addressed. It takes more than just fuel enrichment to make a reliable turbo engine. My point of reference or any turbo engine is total and utter reliability at full power, full load race conditions. This requires exacting engine management from cylinder to cylinder spark timing, fuel-air ration control, detonation sensing and control and much more. The stock Fiat Uno turbo is a good set up example, beyond the engine management that variant of the Lampredi SOHC is different than the stock USA emissions variant (non-siameses cylinders, piston oil jets, smaller bore and..).

Many folks who go the DIY turbo route often use the turbo in seconds long burst, consider what might happen if that same turbo set up was run at or near full power for hour after hour in an endurance road race or long trip on the autobahn?



Bernice

Crusader said:

Hi Bernice. We have an air/fuel gauge installed and the engine starts leaning out a bit at around 5200rpm. As we have just rebuilt it, I have not pushed her past 5500 rpm. We have also modified the fifth injector in order to handle fuel delivery above 4000rpm. She runs a bit rich at idle, but it seems to be a fair trade. Also, there are several folks on here running turbos on their 1500's without Megasquirt systems or the like. I do realize that these engines where not designed for turbos, although the IHI turbo used in Fiats, Isuzus, Subarus, etc. Has proven it self as a reliable small turbo in it's stock form of .86 bar. Is it possible to detonate, sure, any engine is suseptible to running lean. Hopefully we are solid enough like others here. Wish us luck. Cheers,

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Good points Bernice. My original engine was the Uno 1.3l turbo circa 1987, not very sufisticated at all. Turbo engines improved vastly in the 90's. The ECU was no more sufisticated than the stock x19 brain box. As far as lubricating the engine we have increased oil pressure to about 80psi. I cannot tell yet what the engine will hold flat out, but I will report back once she is broken in. As far as highway driving goes, she has been at 120kmh at 4200rpm at running 5% boost on load adjustments to maintain speed for about an hour. I will soon test her under full load through all 5 gears and listen for knock, will report back. By the way, not really a DIY build as my mechanic has raced Fiats for 30 years. So, here's hoping for the best. Cheers,

Errr....

Engines have not changed that much since the 1980's despite what many might believe or think. Many of the design elements for the modern petro engine has been around for decades before.

Turbocharged engines were common in aircraft as the turbos increased air density reducing power loss due to thinner air (lower atmospheric pressure with increase altitude). The P38 Lightning used two BIG turbos to increase engine power.

http://chuck.goolsbee.org/images/09roadtrip/turbo-super.jpg

http://zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-38/38sup.gif

Example the Rolls Royce-Packard Motor Merlin V12 had four valves per cylinder, blower or turbo and more. Twin over head cams goes back to the 1920's.
http://imgur.com/rjh0p2c

http://www.motorship.com/__data/assets/image/0014/403502/ABB-A100-L20Turbocharger.jpg can be oversized when used on diesel ship engines:


Turbocharging-Supercharging has been around for a long time before they became a production road car feature. It was Saab in 1978 that made it happen by leveraging turbo engine technology from Scania trucks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krrO4BsF3Fk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3XO7nkkMA


About 1981, Saab introduced APC, which is detonation control by altering ignition timing with allowance for momentary over boost.

By the late 1980's Saab had cooked up a pretty good turbo engine management system that was licensed to other manufactures interested in producing a turbo engine. The later Maserati Bi-turbo with Bosch EFI is one example of turbo engine management from Saab. It was also during this time (1980's) when Saab & Lancia & Fiat group were married via the type four chassis. There was significant sharing of technology and ideas at that time.

Essentially, it is electronic petro engine management innovation and proper implementation that allowed the modern turbo engine to become what it is today. The mechanical oily bits were much less of a limitation.

The turbocharged or super charged engine is essentially a two stage pump.


Bernice

Turbo install

Hey Crusader,

could you elaborate a bit more on your engine specifications? If I understand correctly, you are using a standard US 1500 FI engine with an Uno Turbo plenum and an IHI RBH5 turbo?

Just our of curiosity: is there any reason why you didn't just go with the full Uno Turbo (or better still Punto GT) engine?

Are you currently using X1/9 ECU or the Uno Turbo one? More importantly (for a turbo set-up) is whether you are using the Uno Turbo ICU (Microplex) and crank sensor as the advance curve is quite different from a normally aspirated set-up (to prevent detonation under boost).

I had a friend who used a standard X1/9 ignition with an Uno turbo motor and ended up blowing a head gasket due to detonation. He was fine when he installed the full Microplex unit (distributor, crank sensor and coil).

Cheers,
Dom.

Crusader said:

Hi Bernice. We have an air/fuel gauge installed and the engine starts leaning out a bit at around 5200rpm. As we have just rebuilt it, I have not pushed her past 5500 rpm. We have also modified the fifth injector in order to handle fuel delivery above 4000rpm. She runs a bit rich at idle, but it seems to be a fair trade. Also, there are several folks on here running turbos on their 1500's without Megasquirt systems or the like. I do realize that these engines where not designed for turbos, although the IHI turbo used in Fiats, Isuzus, Subarus, etc. Has proven it self as a reliable small turbo in it's stock form of .86 bar. Is it possible to detonate, sure, any engine is suseptible to running lean. Hopefully we are solid enough like others here. Wish us luck. Cheers,

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dcioccarelli said:

Hey Crusader,



could you elaborate a bit more on your engine specifications? If I understand correctly, you are using a standard US 1500 FI engine with an Uno Turbo plenum and an IHI RBH5 turbo?



Just our of curiosity: is there any reason why you didn't just go with the full Uno Turbo (or better still Punto GT) engine?



Are you currently using X1/9 ECU or the Uno Turbo one? More importantly (for a turbo set-up) is whether you are using the Uno Turbo ICU (Microplex) and crank sensor as the advance curve is quite different from a normally aspirated set-up (to prevent detonation under boost).



I had a friend who used a standard X1/9 ignition with an Uno turbo motor and ended up blowing a head gasket due to detonation. He was fine when he installed the full Microplex unit (distributor, crank sensor and coil).



Cheers,

Dom.

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Good afternoon Dom. We do have all of the engine management from the 1.3 Uno turbo motor which the car came with. Due to sourcing of parts we abandoned the Uno rebuild and switched to the US 1500 lump. We could not set up the Uno management brain due to not having the crank sensor. How did your friend get around that? Would be very interested to know. I have a full restoration build thread on Facebook "Greetings from Vancouver". The original 1.3 Uno turbo ran on the car for 2 years with the x19 brain box. We are also using an MSD coil (with resistor) with a stock distributor and ignition module. Cheers,

ECU, ICU, etc.

Hey Crusader,

I'm sure that you have already seen this page concerning the conversion:

http://web.archive.org/web/20140626170049/http://www.laursen-online.dk/x1-9/service-uk/engineconv-ut.html

Although I'm no expert in Uno Turbo conversions (I've seen a few, but never done one) I can share the following thoughts:

ECU:

The ECU in a mk1 Turbo is a Bosch LE2-Jetronic. According to wikipedia:

"This is a simplified and more modern variant of L-Jetronic. The ECU was much cheaper to produce due to more modern components, and was more standardised than the L-Jetronic ECUs. The connections between mass airflow meter and ECU are simplified. Three variants of LE-Jetronic exist: LE1, the initial version. LE2 (1984–), featured cold start functionality integrated in the ECU, which does not require the cold start injector and thermo time switch used by older systems. LE3 (1989–), featuring miniaturised ECU with hybrid technology, integrated into the junction box of the mass airflow meter.
"

So, for the ECU at least, you don't need the extra sensors. I'd personally go with the LE2, de to the integrated cold start functionality (cold start in the L-Jetronic is completely separate to the ECU and relatively crude). In addition, the part number for the Uno Turbo ECU (0 280 000 336) is unique to that car, implying that the internal circuitry is tuned specifically for that engine.

ICU:

The ignition control unit is much more important. Reading up on the Digiplex unit, it needs both a crank and flywheel sensor (for RPM). The latter is pretty easy: you just need to drill a hole in the existing transmission case and mount the hall effect sensor (I have a modified gearbox sensor in my cellar if you need a reference photo).

For the crank sensor, here is a thread that details it in more depth than I could:

http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/24076

You can probably get one made up (maybe Matt already has done that?).

In any case, I'd definitely recommend investing the time to get the Digiplex system working (including distributor, coil, ignition driver, etc.) if you want to get full power and have decent longevity for your engine.

Cheers,
Dom.

Crusader said:

Good afternoon Dom. We do have all of the engine management from the 1.3 Uno turbo motor which the car came with. Due to sourcing of parts we abandoned the Uno rebuild and switched to the US 1500 lump. We could not set up the Uno management brain due to not having the crank sensor. How did your friend get around that? Would be very interested to know. I have a full restoration build thread on Facebook "Greetings from Vancouver". The original 1.3 Uno turbo ran on the car for 2 years with the x19 brain box. We are also using an MSD coil (with resistor) with a stock distributor and ignition module. Cheers,

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