Need suggestions with possible twin carb issues...

petex19

True Classic
So I finally was able to take the new stroker motor out for a good drive to break it in. I wanted to try out my new infrared thermometer on the individual header tubes and was not happy to see that cylinders #1 and #4 were at 170 degrees Fahrenheit and #2 and #3 were at 340 degrees Fahrenheit. Now the motor was fully up to temp. and was idling when I took the measurements. All the temps. may appear low to some but I had my header ceramic coated inside and out by "Jet-Hot" this past winter.

My twin 45DCOE Weber carbs are in sync as I verified using my Uni-syn. and my AFR's are excellent ranging between 12.2 and 13.6 through the rpm range. I'm wondering if the fuel mixture needs to be adjusted for two of the cylinders but I don't know if #2 and #3 need to get hotter or #1 and #4 need to get colder?

I'm comfortable around the jetting for AFR adjustments but am not comfortable with messing up the mixture as I had the carbs setup by my machinist and I've just fine tuned the AFR's with jetting changes.

Any advice or info. would be great.
 
I would expect them to be similar

Hey Pete, I would expect the header pipe temps to be similar, but it could depend a lot on how thick the ceramic coatings are. If they aren't equal I could imagine a difference in readings. It could also be something as simple as your 2 middle temps are being influenced by having other pipes outside of them.

Your jetting may be fine but It's possible that your idle mixture screws need to be adjusted. Is your idle lumpy?

Cheers,

Rob
 
No my idle is really good for five seconds or so and then it starts dropping right down to almost stalling so I blip the throttle and then it holds at 900rpms again and then repeat....

I just did some quick research and read multiple articles saying that bad spark plug wires are the cause of low header temps as those cylinders aren't firing all the time. My plug wires are quite new but I cheaped out a little and bought these 8mm accuspark instead of getting really good wires like "magnecor" or similar.

I'm also not sure whether my fuel mixture needs to be richened or leaner to increase the header temp in #1 and #4
 
I also just read this: "exhaust's temperature is directly linked to mixture => if the exhaust is cold, that means the mixture is excessively rich."

So now I need to figure out which way to turn the mixture screw and by how much to lean #1 and #4 and see if that helps.
 
Turn them in

My experience is turn them in until that cylinder starts to miss, then turn it back out half a turn.

I have a copy of Des Hammills book "How to build & power tune Weber and Dellorto DCOE & DHLA carburetors." I can mail it to you and you can mail it back when you are done with it.

Cheers,

Rob
 
Imma go with

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Are you getting a direct shot at the header?

Brad Garska and I fooled around with this a few years back and it took a bit of finessing to get a perpindicular line of site for each tube otherwise it would have inconsistent readings. Just double check that before doing much else, it kinda jives with the tube access for 1,4 and 2,3. Maybe give Brad a shout to get some feedback; he has had success tuning this way.
 
Sounds like rich mixture on those barrels. The fun of dual carbs!

I don't know enough about DCOE's to be much help with tuning them specifically, but I know for DCNF's, you HAVE to make sure the idle/mixture screws are sealing and not letting in air. The DCNFs I used had a spring loaded screw. I made sure that:

1. The tips where a sharp point and not broken
2. The threads where clean and not crossed
3. The springs were all the same length.
4. I had rubber washers BEHIND the beveled washes the springs perched against on the carb side. These are what seal them to make sure no air gets in.

I sourced the rubber washers from a local ace hardware, but I did buy new screws from Pierce Manifold as well as 4 exact same springs.

My 36's liked to ALL be about 3 1/2 turns out - give or take a 1/2 turn.

How are the temps after some driving?
 
I tried taking thermo.. reading again after a good drive and taking them from an equal point across all four header tubes. While the motor was very warm and idling I shot the laser at each tube 1" after the mounting point to the block which could be done from above equally and the temps I got for each one were: #1,3 and 4 were at 240'F and #2 was at 170'F so I have equal for three out of the four so far. So I may need to lean the mixture for #2 slightly.

It's trial and error but lots of fun.:grin:
 
Welcome to life with multiple carbs...

Ya know, they are primarily there for folks who LIKE to play with carbs all the time... especially those DCOEs!

One thing I might be able to contribute here is that cylinders 2 and 3 should always run a bit hotter due to there "Siamezed" configuration. I find this true on my small block Chevy, my Olds, and this was also a BIG concern with the air-cooled Corvair flat sixes, way back when.

As an illustration, a flat four VW engine's cylinders have better cooling on 3 of their 4 sides... A flat six cylinder would have the same on the outer cylinders but only cooling on 2 sides for cylinders 2 and 5. Also remember most of our head gasket failures occur between cylinders 2 and 3.

Your last readings of 240, 240, 170 and 240 indicates to me that cylinder 2 is not doing as much work. I would imagine that when running evenly and appropriately... cylinders 2 and 3 should run about 50 degrees hotter than 1 and 4.

ALSO... rev the engine to 3 or 4 grand and take readings then as well. See what changes you experience.

I may play with my infrared thermometer at some later date and let you know what my stocker reads.

Continue having fun, Pete! Let us know of your progress.
 
Another drive today and here's the good and bad results:

Good
AFR's are between 12.6-13.7 from idle to 4000rpms as I haven't pushed beyond that as stroker re-build only has 100kms. on it.

Carbs are in-sync. as my uni-syn reads (6) across all four velocity stacks.

Motor sounds great.

Bad
Motor lags around 3000rpms

Header temps still show cyl.2 at 159`F and 1,3&4 at 220`F

I read that turning in the idle mixture screw will cause the motor is stumble and then you back it out again to a smooth idle. I tried this and 1,3 &4 did exactly as I read but cyl.2 I was able to turn the screw completely in with no effect on the running motor.

I pulled the num.2 spark plug wire off and the motor ran exactly the same.

I even tried spraying carb cleaner into each velocity stack as the motor was running and as expected 1,3 &4 the motor would start to stall until I revved it up again but num.2 their was no effect.

I`m loosing my mind on this. I`m obviously running on only 3 cylinders and don`t know what if anything I can do to fix it.

I tried a different distributor cap and a different spark plug wire on num.2 with no change at all. I tried a new spark plug in num.2 and I took a picture of it to post. It`s not the nice tan that is optimal but it also didn`t come out still looking new. All four spark plugs look the same so I must have combustion in num. 2 :sigh::sigh:

I even tried swapping the jetting between the right and left side of the carb and problem is still on the left side of the carb which lines up with num.2 cylinder.

I`m open to all suggestions and please don`t be afraid to tell me that the motor has to come back out.:wall:


 
Another drive today and here's the good and bad results:

Good
AFR's are between 12.6-13.7 from idle to 4000rpms as I haven't pushed beyond that as stroker re-build only has 100kms. on it.

Carbs are in-sync. as my uni-syn reads (6) across all four velocity stacks.

Motor sounds great.

Bad
Motor lags around 3000rpms

Header temps still show cyl.2 at 159`F and 1,3&4 at 220`F

I read that turning in the idle mixture screw will cause the motor is stumble and then you back it out again to a smooth idle. I tried this and 1,3 &4 did exactly as I read but cyl.2 I was able to turn the screw completely in with no effect on the running motor.

I pulled the num.2 spark plug wire off and the motor ran exactly the same.

I even tried spraying carb cleaner into each velocity stack as the motor was running and as expected 1,3 &4 the motor would start to stall until I revved it up again but num.2 their was no effect.

I`m loosing my mind on this. I`m obviously running on only 3 cylinders and don`t know what if anything I can do to fix it.

I tried a different distributor cap and a different spark plug wire on num.2 with no change at all. I tried a new spark plug in num.2 and I took a picture of it to post. It`s not the nice tan that is optimal but it also didn`t come out still looking new. All four spark plugs look the same so I must have combustion in num. 2 :sigh::sigh:

I even tried swapping the jetting between the right and left side of the carb and problem is still on the left side of the carb which lines up with num.2 cylinder.

I`m open to all suggestions and please don`t be afraid to tell me that the motor has to come back out.:wall:



sounds like it's time for a compression check on all cylinders, especially #2
 
I was hoping that the problem might be the distributor itself or maybe the one DCOE carb? I will do a compression test hopefully tonight after work :sigh:

Not sure of the distributors exact job but does it not control the spark for each cylinder and could it be bad and not creating a spark for #2.
I have no real knowledge of what I'm speaking of but just a guesstimate and prayer.
 
I was hoping that the problem might be the distributor itself or maybe the one DCOE carb? I will do a compression test hopefully tonight after work :sigh:

Not sure of the distributors exact job but does it not control the spark for each cylinder and could it be bad and not creating a spark for #2.
I have no real knowledge of what I'm speaking of but just a guesstimate and prayer.

Not going to be as simple as a Distributor.
Compression test will most likely tell you if you blew a head gasket or rings. Or worse yet whole head.
 
Not sure of the distributors exact job but does it not control the spark for each cylinder and could it be bad and not creating a spark for #2.
I have no real knowledge of what I'm speaking of but just a guesstimate and prayer.

You can try disconnecting the number 2 wire from the plug, then holding the tip next to any solid ground while the engine is turning. You want to see a nice fat blue spark.

But with amount of stuff you've checked already.... I'm betting that you do have good spark at #2 and a compression test is going to tell you that the head is coming off.
 
Just spoke with my machinist and he said that with the chrome finish "Jet-hot" ceramic coating my infrared thermometer wouldn't be accurate anyways as the laser will reflect off of it. Of course this doesn't explain all the other symptoms so he agreed with all of you to ensure that I have spark and compression across all four cylinders.

If I have spark and compression then he suggested that I remove the idle/mixture screw corresponding with #2 cylinder and blow a shot of compressed air into the carb as it may dis-lodge a possible blockage. He thinks that I may be mis-firing at idle due to **** in my carb but upon driving and the carb transitions onto the mains then the mis-fire may disappear.

I'll have more to report after work tonight.
 
Peter... before you do anything else when...

you suspect a cylinder is missing or not firing, is to do a COMPRESSION TEST.

If those numbers are RIGHT, then go ahead with all the other things that you are doing here. If they are NOT RIGHT, then doing all this stuff won't help a bit.

Perform all tests with the coil wire disconnected and accelerator WIDE OPEN.

Test and record those numbers HERE:

Then spray in some oil (about two teaspoons) into each cylinder ONE AT A TIME, and test again.

Record those numbers HERE:

HTH...
 
This may be a completely off track train of thought...

It's probably too silly a question to even ask, but, your car doesn't happen to have one of the carb or injector cooling fans does it?
Just happened to think that depending on how things were aimed and or shrouded, it might be possible that there might be some drafts of cooler air wafting onto some sections of the header.
No idea if it could be enough to cause a reading that is *that* different even if a fan was blowing on a pipe or two, or even if you car has the fan or a shroud directing airflow/etc.
Like I said, my thought is probably totally irrelevant, it just happened to occur to me that sometimes what seems like it is the most likely, logical from one way of looking at things, can turn out to be completely the wrong direction because sometimes causes that are completely unrelated can end up causing the same the same, or very similar, surface symptoms.
Like, just for the sake of an example...
Once a very long time ago a guy I was worked with was having some problems with his truck. he'd had his carburetor rebuilt at *least* twice replaced fuel filter and pump, had several friends and some mechanics go over things trying to solve his "fuel starvation problem".
It was some sort of great unsolvable mystery or something as to why this truck just kept dying out in various situations.
Anyway, I don't remember what all he described as far as symptoms go and such (this was maybe 14 years ago, so it's been a while), suffice to say, fuel related problems could have explained most of what he told me about it.
So I'm like, you checked the vacuum advance, right?
And he just stares at me like I've said something that was incomprehensible or something. So we go out to his truck and popped the hood and I did exactly what I'd learned the same way I'd learned it by watching my dad and grandpa when I was a kid.
I pulled the vacuum line off the carburetor and sucked on it, with the intent of building a bit of suction then putting my tongue over the hole to see if it would hold the vacuum I'd created.
Well, it didn't quite turn out that way because what happened was that I sucked, and suddenly found myself with a mouth-full of dust and grit and stuff because the advance diaphragm wasn't *weak*, it was like, *nonexistent* I'd just sucked straight air and whatever dirt and junk had accumulated on the floor of his distributor.
Anyway, I was like, Ahem, yeah. you need to replace your vacuum advance.
lol.
he still looked at me like I was an alien or something so I attempted to explain how/why having no ignition advance could cause a truck to start dying out when it got up around 45 mph, because the timing couldn't automatically adjust to keep up at higher rpms.
Anyway, he ended up sending in his carburetor rebuilt again instead. lol
After all, all his other friends and mechanics already *knew* it had to be a fuel starvation problem.
Anyway, that story isn't directly related to this one, and I'm barely even a mechanic anymore, I'm just telling the story as an example of how sometimes mechanics can get so accustomed to figuring out, looking for, dealing very complicated problems, that it's possible to sometimes end up with some blind spots at times and if they aren't careful, can end up locked into a sort of "tunnel vision" to the point where they can miss some things that might seem too simple to even consider.
A simpler example was back when I was about 20, and some of my mechanic buddy's track me down to ask what I thought about a problem they couldn't figure out.
They'd been banging their heads against a wall trying to figure out why the heater had stopped working in an S-10.
I couldn't keep up with all the stuff they were saying they'd tried. it was a spiel that was like, everything under the sun but rotating the tires and/or facing the car into the wind.
So I was like, you've already made sure there's water in the radiator?
And they just stared and me for a bit, then both jumped up and went running outside.
A minute or two later they came back in, red-faced and laughing their buns off.
It was bone dry. lol
It's not like I was some sort of "super mechanic" or anything.
It's just that they'd already obviously been attacking various possible complex solutions, so the most logical thing to do was try to think of what could be the simplest *alternate* solution.
How does a heater produce heat? by using heated water from the engine. Therefor, simplest possible solution to no heat, is no water.
It happened to be the only shot I took, but it was really also the only shot I had off of the top of my head. if it'd had water in it, I didn't have a second possible answer handy.
Anyway, It's just a sort of fundamental thing that I had always tried to remember when it came to troubleshooting various kinds of complex systems. If results to complex tasks or tests don't yield the sorts of logical results that are expected based on what is known, take a step back and look over the situation from the most basic perspective to verify that there isn't another much simpler alternate explanation, or unconsidered/unexpected variable interfering with results.
So yeah, don't even know if you have a fan blowing into that area on your car, but that was my one shot at the simplest alternate explanation that I could think of.
Some pipes colder than expected or colder than others... Cold air blowing on some of the pipes?
Anyway, good luck with your project, and have a Happy Easter! :D
 
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