How to drive on street and track to preserve the gearbox ?

Chromaphase

Chromaphase

True Classic
Hi guys,
So I went to my first rally last week and I had some chatting with previous X ownors.
They told me to pause in neutral when swtiching the gears. A bit confused by this.

My original question to them was that I know the gearbox on the X can give trouble.
So how one drive should drive it on street to preserve the gearbox,
As well for track/rally.

Should you switch fast, real fast ? Slow ? Pause in neutral ?
I even heard someone telling me to rev up when braking so to keep the rev high when switching gear in a turn.

Thanks for your inputs !

Matthieu

Relevant : Me last week on a chill rally.
438907161_1661804341259096_3899801888295019785_n.jpg
 
Learn how the synchronizers work, understand it, and drive in a way that puts the least strain on them?

:)
 
Porsche type syncros like a little pause. I find that a blip of the throttle as you downshift seems to provide longevity (and sounds cool). At least that works for the Alfas I drive. My X is not running yet. 😂
 
MikeHynes said:
Yes, give the syncros time to work. Don't bang shift it, it's not a dog ring box. Use a deliberate Snick..Snick motion when you shift. And do try to match revs as much as possible.
Click to expand...

Could you show me an example of this ?
For instance this X is running original gearbox I think and he is not going very gently, in my opinion... VIDEO
Maybe because it would be risky to let the right hand too much on the gearbox while turning at high speed, better switch as fast and keep the wheel with two hands. I have no idea.

Snick motion > Im not a native speaker and cannot find anything online about this term, can you explain in simple words ? Thanks !

note: found also this video of driving of OE X, seems to be changing gears with nothing special. Would you call this too fast or slow ? VIDEO
 
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Well, driving on the N-ring does not usually entail a concern for mechanical longevity. :)

You can shift the gearbox quickly, but it tends to wear the synchronizers more quickly too. A trade off.

Regarding Mike's "snick". I translate that as: "move the shifter in a deliberate, smooth motion. Follow the H pattern and make sure you get the shifter completely to the next position". Don't be sloppy with the shifter.

Hope that makes sense. :)
 
Looks like you are enjoying you X. That is probably the biggest factor.

Maybe:
  • track rally = shift quickly, have fun and don't worry
  • Street = pause between gears, rev match and shift smoothly
A good compromise!
 
Don't do fast shifts. Just shift normally. I don't pause in neutral or anything like that. The key is not to do fast shifts.
 
Mark_Toro said:
Well, driving on the N-ring does not usually entail a concern for mechanical longevity. :)

You can shift the gearbox quickly, but it tends to wear the synchronizers more quickly too. A trade off.

Regarding Mike's "snick". I translate that as: "move the shifter in a deliberate, smooth motion. Follow the H pattern and make sure you get the shifter completely to the next position". Don't be sloppy with the shifter.

Hope that makes sense. :)
Click to expand...
Thanks,
Yeah Im trying to be smooth !
I only have old car (no modern car) so for this reason I never go to hard on the gearbox,
I just watched a video about the bit of rev while switching, however this seems super tricky to do because you are off the brake then,
Its really a sport !
 
Porsche syncros.... they cannot shift fast by design.. This is also why Porsche eventually abandoned their synchro design in their newer and current offerings (now Borg Warner syncros).. The exxe transaxle has inverted Borg Warner syncros in 1st/2nd gear, 3rd/4th/5th are Porsche syncros with 3rd being the most often abused/damaged/failed.

This means pause in neutral between gears and slight force towards the gear to be engaged before making the shift engagement into the target gear. If the gear shift/change is forced to speeded up, synchro damage is assured.. This applies to all Porsche synchro gear boxes..

Take the time to read this previous discussion about Porsche syncros and shifting..

Third gear grind is back

Earlier this year I completed a rebuild of the transmission in my '83 X. Once completed everything worked perfectly. Here is the link to the thread on the rebuild: https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/transmission-overhaul-5-speed.32084/ So after about 3k miles third gear is...
xwebforums.com


Bernice
 
I double clutch every shift. Yes, every shift. Up and down. Rev matching each time. I've driven my Coupe home with a busted clutch cable. Red lights were the only tricky spot. 30+ years of double clutch/heel-toe makes this second nature. The synchros in my gearboxes don't see much use.
 
SuperTopo said:
I double clutch every shift. Yes, every shift. Up and down. Rev matching each time. I've driven my Coupe home with a busted clutch cable. Red lights were the only tricky spot. 30+ years of double clutch/heel-toe makes this second nature. The synchros in my gearboxes don't see much use.
Click to expand...
I see but how you do in a tight cornering coming with speed ?

my main problem is the downshifting, to rev in neutral to keep the rpm... while negociating a tight corner and braking at the same time...
 
Ok, I will offer a different view point then. After racing both the 4 and 5 speed boxes, to me the weakest link is drive shafts. I have two rules when driving the car, 1) No hard drag race launches, and 2) don't force the car into gear, use some grace and finesse (i.e., don't drive it like a 4 speed Hurst shifter... ) For those old American classic muscle car people, that would make sense.

The only time I had a transmission failure was my fault. I had the wrong suspension on for an autocross and the rear tires came into contact with the wheel arch. The weakest link in that whole scenario was the 3rd gear to output shaft. Lost a bunch of teeth and had to get a new input and lay shaft for the transmission.

I also had a very short gear box in my Race X originally when I first got it. It was ridiculous, you could go full out and through the first three gears and not be over 35mph... I would bang through those as fast as I could, never had an issue.

However, as Steve H would probably attest to, preparation of the components in the transmission makes all the different in the world. Without giving away secrets, there are areas of improvement in the machining and surfaces of items which can make a huge difference in how well the system shifts. For the 4 speed FWD, I found the casting of the case from a Yugo had much better oil flow than the ones from Fiat, so little things like that go a long way. Oh, good throw out bearing, a clutch master/slave which is properly bleed and works very well, and the list goes on and on.

Hope this helps.
 
SuperTopo said:
I double clutch every shift. Yes, every shift. Up and down. Rev matching each time. I've driven my Coupe home with a busted clutch cable. Red lights were the only tricky spot. 30+ years of double clutch/heel-toe makes this second nature. The synchros in my gearboxes don't see much use.
Click to expand...
Me too.
 
Rupunzell said:
Porsche syncros.... they cannot shift fast by design.. This is also why Porsche eventually abandoned their synchro design in their newer and current offerings (now Borg Warner syncros).. The exxe transaxle has inverted Borg Warner syncros in 1st/2nd gear, 3rd/4th/5th are Porsche syncros with 3rd being the most often abused/damaged/failed.

This means pause in neutral between gears and slight force towards the gear to be engaged before making the shift engagement into the target gear. If the gear shift/change is forced to speeded up, synchro damage is assured.. This applies to all Porsche synchro gear boxes..

Take the time to read this previous discussion about Porsche syncros and shifting..

Third gear grind is back

Earlier this year I completed a rebuild of the transmission in my '83 X. Once completed everything worked perfectly. Here is the link to the thread on the rebuild: https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/transmission-overhaul-5-speed.32084/ So after about 3k miles third gear is...
xwebforums.com


Bernice
Click to expand...
This long post is sooo interesting thanks.
Beezee never got his answer about the groove on the synchros and other parts tho.
Its weird no one, especially the one rebuilding a lot of trans from the X didnt answer. Or maybe privately ?
he made a lot of photos and long post about all the difference with the OE part and the aftermarket one. But no answer on this, just 3 months later he said, oh its working fine.

I want the answer to the groove question, if not, cant sleep !

But joke aside, I have exactly the same problem with the point from the ignition, aftermarket parts look a like, but actually we need to cahnge them often.

Anyway if anyone interested there are great videos in that thread. Can see the downshifting thingy.
 
Honestly when I first got my X, the PO told me how it took him a while to get used to how the car wants to be shifted but on my first test drive I just shifted “normally”, how I’ve always driven manual, and felt it was pretty similar. Didn’t feel odd or tricky to me.

Just don’t force or hustle the car into gear.
 
Chromaphase said:
This long post is sooo interesting thanks.
Beezee never got his answer about the groove on the synchros and other parts tho.
Its weird no one, especially the one rebuilding a lot of trans from the X didnt answer. Or maybe privately ?
he made a lot of photos and long post about all the difference with the OE part and the aftermarket one. But no answer on this, just 3 months later he said, oh its working fine.

I want the answer to the groove question, if not, cant sleep !

But joke aside, I have exactly the same problem with the point from the ignition, aftermarket parts look a like, but actually we need to cahnge them often.

Anyway if anyone interested there are great videos in that thread. Can see the downshifting thingy.
Click to expand...
Suspect the issues with the groove is related to oem -vs- aftermarket.. points again to the need for oem or oem identical quality parts in the exxe transaxle if proper operation/function is expected.

Aftermarket parts today are often Poooo with a proven record of sub-standard quality compared to the original oem parts. There is not much incentive for aftermarket part suppliers to deliver a high quality oem identical part when profits are involved. There is much incentive to produce/sell Pooo quality parts as this tends to force re-purchase and more profitability and eventually, the specific vehicle will be forced into the crusher due to lack of parts support.

Market value and moto market status drives parts quality and availability on all levels. Example, Mercedes offers ALL vintage parts for their vintage cars...at a price.. https://www.mbusa.com/en/classic-ce...pEIRVolNfGJH2pq8xgcaAhElEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Example, order up a set of oem Mercedes 300SL firewall grommets, they are available for $1500 U$D per set.. more than the market value of some x1/9s... that set of $1500 U$D grommets is tiny relative to the market value of a 300SL that can sell for several million U$D...

It's much about perceived value, little if anything about good design or overall package performance, moto social status tied to brand identity is what most of these "folks" are after.


Bernice
 
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