Issues setting my ignition timing

[petex19]

Didn't know what to put as a title as so many issues took place. I wasn't going to post but I figured that if I can't figure out the why then I can't prevent it from happening again.

I replaced my distributor and car fired right up. Setting my timing advance, I noticed the exhaust smoke was on the white side so I shut it off. I pulled plug #1 and it was a good black/brown color but I couldn't smell much fuel on it. I figured the exhaust smoke would clear so I continued setting the timing. After another 30sec I didn't like the color of the exhaust so I stopped. I pulled all 4 plugs and cyl#4 was white whereas the others were black. I pulled the oil dipstick and it was black/grey. Not the color oil should be but not chocolate milk indicating a blown head gasket.
I had to know what damage was done so I started removing the head. The cam box gasket was in pieces. The head gasket looks like the day it was installed. Piston #4 is washed on the top whereas the other 3 look as they should. No visible damage to the piston tops, head or cam box.
I will have the head and cam box looked over by a machine shop as well as the valves. Visibly all the valves except the intake valve cyl#4 look brand new looking through the intake and exhaust ports. Intake cyl#4 just looks like the finish came off the inside part of the valve which is probably from the heat.
The car wasn't driven and total running time was probably under 4min total setting the timing.
There was no detonation or anything. I expected to see a blown head gasket but that didn't happen.
What could have caused this. Over advancing it setting the timing?
Water pump failure?
Carbs running too lean?
I had 3psi of fuel going to my carbs.
I took pictures of the block with the head gasket and of the oil. Hard to tell in the pail but on my finger it's easier to see it's not black.

 

[kmead]

Can you take us through the history of this motor?

The cam box gasket is a delicate item which would be unlikely to survive disassembly.

How long ago was it rebuilt? What did it look like when you closed it up?

I will be honest, I think you were premature in taking it apart, I very likely may be wrong.

Any engine which has been sitting for a while tends to blow white smoke until it warms up completely, particularly if you have been cranking it over without ignition. How long ago was the oil changed? The oil may have been corrupted by the gasoline which bypassed the rings from sitting. It may also be partly responsible for the cleaned pistons.

There are others with much more experience around this subject who will likely chime in.

 

[SuperTopo]

#4 cylinder was burning coolant. That's why it's steam cleaned and that's why your exhaust was white, it's steam. So while your head gasket looks "ok", I bet it was letting coolant into cylinder #4. Or you head is cracked and that's how water is getting in the cylinder. At least that's my bet.

 

[petex19]

Can you take us through the history of this motor?

The cam box gasket is a delicate item which would be unlikely to survive disassembly.

How long ago was it rebuilt? What did it look like when you closed it up?

I will be honest, I think you were premature in taking it apart, I very likely may be wrong.

Any engine which has been sitting for a while tends to blow white smoke until it warms up completely, particularly if you have been cranking it over without ignition. How long ago was the oil changed? The oil may have been corrupted by the gasoline which bypassed the rings from sitting. It may also be partly responsible for the cleaned pistons.

There are others with much more experience around this subject who will likely chime in.

The motor was professionally done in 2014 but has only been driven 3000km since. It's a 1600 stroker, bvhead, delta 40/80 cam, lightened flywheel with 10.6:1 compression. It's an interference engine.
I have been running twin 45 dcoe since 2014 but last year sold them and installed twin 40 DCNF carbs.
The car has sat in barn storage for most of the past 4 years. The oil was last changed two years ago but only driven 500km since.
The car was getting hot (200deg) much quicker the last couple times I drove it. I thought it was air in the coolant system so I bled it. That didn't work so I replaced the thermostat. I would never keep driving after it would get hot. I should have replaced the water pump as I think that's the problem.
Yes I tend to agree that tearing the head off may have been premature. I'm okay with that. I will have the head cleaned, inspected and planed if necessary. Hopefully no cracks. I'll replace the water pump while I'm at all of it.
Obviously I'm trying to be optimistic as the fact that the #4 cyl plug was white and white smoke was present is concerning. I'll know by the weekend the condition of the head.

 

[kmead]

The motor was professionally done in 2014 but has only been driven 3000km since. It's a 1600 stroker, bvhead, delta 40/80 cam, lightened flywheel with 10.6:1 compression. It's an interference engine.
I have been running twin 45 dcoe since 2014 but last year sold them and installed twin 40 DCNF carbs.
The car has sat in barn storage for most of the past 4 years. The oil was last changed two years ago but only driven 500km since.
The car was getting hot (200deg) much quicker the last couple times I drove it. I thought it was air in the coolant system so I bled it. That didn't work so I replaced the thermostat. I would never keep driving after it would get hot. I should have replaced the water pump as I think that's the problem.
Yes I tend to agree that tearing the head off may have been premature. I'm okay with that. I will have the head cleaned, inspected and planed if necessary. Hopefully no cracks. I'll replace the water pump while I'm at all of it.
Obviously I'm trying to be optimistic as the fact that the #4 cyl plug was white and white smoke was present is concerning. I'll know by the weekend the condition of the head.

Thank you for the history.

Given that and the evidence the pistons present, I agree with SuperTopo that there is something going on with head or head gasket.

How advanced was the timing? With compression like that I wouldn’t think you would go for anything more than standard, Hussien ran into repeated problems with his head gasket when he went too advanced.

If it isn’t the head then churning through the cooling system is, to your point, the next system to chase through.

In terms of the heating up, I wouldn’t see the issue being the water pump failing. Taking it apart and checking the impeller to body distance wouldn’t be a bad idea. It is rather unlikely the pump has disintegrated.

Was there air n the system when you bled it? Did turning on the heater pull the temperature down at all?Any odd leaks along the length of the car? Are you certain there are no pin leaks in the long tubes from front to back? They have been known to get holes which allow air in and degrade the cooling system performance.

We recently went through a long run at a car (124 Spider) which overheated despite replacing the thermostat, water pump and head gasket. It ended up being the radiator which was clogged in an area that wasn’t visible at the top of the tank (It looked otherwise new). Seemingly simple but it only overheated when running at speed, it wouldn’t overheat sitting there. We felt like idiots when we finally got to the end of it.

 

[Steve Thomas]

Depending on the intake manifold you use - you could have a leak from one of the coolant ports covered by the manifold and into the inlet runner.

 

[petex19]

Thank you for the history.

Given that and the evidence the pistons present, I agree with SuperTopo that there is something going on with head or head gasket.

How advanced was the timing? With compression like that I wouldn’t think you would go for anything more than standard, Hussien ran into repeated problems with his head gasket when he went too advanced.

If it isn’t the head then churning through the cooling system is, to your point, the next system to chase through.

In terms of the heating up, I wouldn’t see the issue being the water pump failing. Taking it apart and checking the impeller to body distance wouldn’t be a bad idea. It is rather unlikely the pump has disintegrated.

Was there air n the system when you bled it? Did turning on the heater pull the temperature down at all?Any odd leaks along the length of the car? Are you certain there are no pin leaks in the long tubes from front to back? They have been known to get holes which allow air in and degrade the cooling system performance.

We recently went through a long run at a car (124 Spider) which overheated despite replacing the thermostat, water pump and head gasket. It ended up being the radiator which was clogged in an area that wasn’t visible at the top of the tank (It looked otherwise new). Seemingly simple but it only overheated when running at speed, it wouldn’t overheat sitting there. We felt like idiots when we finally got to the end of it.

I have little doubt that I over advanced it trying to set the timing. I fully blame myself over anything causing this. Yes 10' static advance is all I should have needed. Can't go back in time unfortunately. Yes air bled out of the rad bleeder when I last bled the system. The rad is aluminum and was replaced about 12 years ago but no more than 4000km driven in that time. I don't know of any leaks and the coolant overflow bottle is always at same level. My heater doesn't work so I couldn't turn it on. Can I buy one of those coolant system pressurizing kits and see if it hold the pressure and pushes the air out?
Does the water pump not circulate the coolant through the head and the system? I figured it's getting hot because coolant is circulating properly?
As for the intake manifold blocking something, I don't fully understand what he means?
It's a "Stoles race shop" twin dcnf manifold.
Would the machine shop going through and cleaning the head clear any possible coolant blocks?

 

[kmead]

I have little doubt that I over advanced it trying to set the timing. I fully blame myself over anything causing this. Yes 10' static advance is all I should have needed. Can't go back in time unfortunately. Yes air bled out of the rad bleeder when I last bled the system. The rad is aluminum and was replaced about 12 years ago but no more than 4000km driven in that time. I don't know of any leaks and the coolant overflow bottle is always at same level. My heater doesn't work so I couldn't turn it on. Can I buy one of those coolant system pressurizing kits and see if it hold the pressure and pushes the air out?
Does the water pump not circulate the coolant through the head and the system? I figured it's getting hot because coolant is circulating properly?
As for the intake manifold blocking something, I don't fully understand what he means?
It's a "Stoles race shop" twin dcnf manifold.
Would the machine shop going through and cleaning the head clear any possible coolant blocks?

There are coolant openings in the head to feed coolant into the intake manifold, some manifolds (the fuel injection ones in particular) don’t circulate coolant so those openings in the head could be leaking coolant into the manifold, which was his point. There are a number of DCNF intakes which don’t circulate coolant and don’t have the associated openings but I believe the one you have does.

From the sounds of things your cooling system should be fine given it has newer components and doesn’t leak. Air in the system can come about a few different ways as air can be entrained into the coolant and separate out in the radiator.

I doubt there are coolant blocks, particularly given the recent rebuild.

It is likely running hot due to the advanced timing. @39° is about the limit with all the advance, anything beyond that causes problems.

 

[dllubin]

My dual DCNF Sprint manifold had the water passages built in but had no plans to use them. I tapped the water ports on the head and installed M8x1.25 set screws with RectorSeal to prevent any leaks.

I must have missed the timing set at 39 degrees. For my engine, I never found going past about 34 degrees gained anything. I'm surprised pre-ignition wasn't a problem at 39 degrees under load.

 

[kmead]

My dual DCNF Sprint manifold had the water passages built in but had no plans to use them. I tapped the water ports on the head and installed M8x1.25 set screws with RectorSeal to prevent any leaks.

I must have missed the timing set at 39 degrees. For my engine, I never found going past about 34 degrees gained anything. I'm surprised pre-ignition wasn't a problem at 39 degrees under load.

My recollection could easily be wrong, I recall that being the demarcation when Hussien was working on his FI motor. I will wander through that thread and check.

 

[dllubin]

My recollection could easily be wrong, I recall that being the demarcation when Hussien was working on his FI motor. I will wander through that thread and check.

Your recollection may not be necessarily wrong. The exact numbers are a function of how the engine is built, what fuel it is using, etc. For example, as CR goes up, required advance goes down. Long duration cams tend to want more advance. I found quite a bit of interesting timing information on some of the sites focused on small block Chevys a few years ago. I don't recall seeing any advance curves that made it to the 40s on the small blocks. If they are running nitrous, the advance gets dialed way back since that stuff combusts very fast.

 

[petex19]

There are coolant openings in the head to feed coolant into the intake manifold, some manifolds (the fuel injection ones in particular) don’t circulate coolant so those openings in the head could be leaking coolant into the manifold, which was his point. There are a number of DCNF intakes which don’t circulate coolant and don’t have the associated openings but I believe the one you have does.

From the sounds of things your cooling system should be fine given it has newer components and doesn’t leak. Air in the system can come about a few different ways as air can be entrained into the coolant and separate out in the radiator.

I doubt there are coolant blocks, particularly given the recent rebuild.

It is likely running hot due to the advanced timing. @39° is about the limit with all the advance, anything beyond that causes problems.

I honestly didn't know that coolant passed through the intake manifold. I thought it was just air getting to the carbs. All I see on the manifold is each individual runner.
The manifold has perfectly round intake ports whereas my F.I BVhead has tear drop intake ports. Could that have been part of the problem? Should the intake manifold ports be machined to match my head?

 

[kmead]

I honestly didn't know that coolant passed through the intake manifold. I thought it was just air getting to the carbs. All I see on the manifold is each individual runner.
The manifold has perfectly round intake ports whereas my F.I BVhead has tear drop intake ports. Could that have been part of the problem? Should the intake manifold ports be machined to match my head?

That manifold doesn’t have the coolant ports. I would want to do as Don Lubin has which is close off the coolant passage on the head side. You should see the two openings between the intake pairs.

Your head was originally a fuel injection head, it would have no influence on this issue. Yes it is ideal when everything is matched but transitioning that up the intake manifold would be tedious and unlikely to elicit any improvements.

 

[dllubin]

I honestly didn't know that coolant passed through the intake manifold. I thought it was just air getting to the carbs. All I see on the manifold is each individual runner.
The manifold has perfectly round intake ports whereas my F.I BVhead has tear drop intake ports. Could that have been part of the problem? Should the intake manifold ports be machined to match my head?

Your intake manifold does not appear to have a water passage. I would still recommend plugging the two water ports on the head. If nothing else, it will prevent coolant from getting all over when you remove the intake manifold next time.

The tear drop intake ports probably indicates it is an FI head. That allows room for the injectors. For optimal performance, it would be good to have the ports matched but I'd be surprised if that was your problem unless it is such a bad match that they are leaking (unlikely?).

 

[petex19]

That one doesn’t have the coolant ports. I would want to do as Don Lubin has which is close off the coolant passage on the head side. You should see the two openings between the intake pairs.

Your head was originally a fuel injection head, it would have no influence on this issue. Yes it is ideal when everything is matched but transitioning that up the intake manifold would be tedious and unlikely to elicit any improvements.

Very interested in seeing what Don did so I can have machine shop do that for me.

 

[petex19]

Your intake manifold does not appear to have a water passage. I would still recommend plugging the two water ports on the head. If nothing else, it will prevent coolant from getting all over when you remove the intake manifold next time.

The tear drop intake ports probably indicates it is an FI head. That allows room for the injectors. For optimal performance, it would be good to have the ports matched but I'd be surprised if that was your problem unless it is such a bad match that they are leaking (unlikely?).

Do you have any pictures of the work you had done? Thank you

 

[kmead]

Very interested in seeing what Don did so I can have machine shop do that for me.

This thread covers the change:

Hex allen plug FI coolant passage

I prepare some winter project, one of my project is to rebuild my spare FI 1500 head. What it the size of hex allen plug are you using to block the coolant passage of FI head? Yves

xwebforums.com

I will look for others.

 

[kmead]

Tapping intake manifold coolant holes in the head

I have a Midwest-Bayless performance fuel injected head I plan to install on a 1500 block in my 78 soon. I wanted to plug the head's intake manifold coolant holes since they are not used for the FI manifold, but the holes had no threads. (By plugging the holes you can remove the intake/exhaust...

xwebforums.com

Do you have any pictures of the work you had done? Thank you

 

[dllubin]

Do you have any pictures of the work you had done? Thank you

I checked but no photos. However, it is a really simple job and taking it to a machine shop only for that would be a gross overkill. Just get an M8 x 1.25 tap, a couple of M8 x 1.25 set screws of your choice, and a little pipe joint compound and have at it. Since the manifold is already off, it should only take a few minutes. Having a shop vac to suck out any metal shards that fall in could come in handy if necessary.

 

[Steve Thomas]

I honestly didn't know that coolant passed through the intake manifold. I thought it was just air getting to the carbs. All I see on the manifold is each individual runner.
The manifold has perfectly round intake ports whereas my F.I BVhead has tear drop intake ports. Could that have been part of the problem? Should the intake manifold ports be machined to match my head?

That image looking at your inlet port looks to have evidence of coolant leak to my aging eyes Blocking those spare coolant passages should prevent reoccurrence.