Honda powered X
- Thread starter racerx
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AngeloX19
True Classic
Very, very nice. It's not often we get to see an X get a total makeover. Good work!
Actually, I'm curious as to the use of the suspension pickup points for the cradle. I would never have thought that they would be a suitable location. You don't forsee any longterm problems?
Actually, I'm curious as to the use of the suspension pickup points for the cradle. I would never have thought that they would be a suitable location. You don't forsee any longterm problems?
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Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Very Nice Matt
Last time we chatted on the phone ya mentioned this project, but now here it is in all it's glory. Pretty!
Just a quick note on Honda K20A. the ones from an USA legal RSX are rated at 200BHP and most did not have the Torsen LSD diff. The JDM and EU Honda K20A, Type R are rated at 220BHP and standard with LSD. There is a Hondat ECU upgrade that puts the power up to 240BHP. This is the work of Joe Curry and Hondat for the Lotus Elise/Exige K20A conversion.
http://www.prototyperacing.com/k20kit.htm
More from our very own Honda Tech on this?
Regardless, this will be one QUICK x1/9 by any measure.
Bernice
Last time we chatted on the phone ya mentioned this project, but now here it is in all it's glory. Pretty!
Just a quick note on Honda K20A. the ones from an USA legal RSX are rated at 200BHP and most did not have the Torsen LSD diff. The JDM and EU Honda K20A, Type R are rated at 220BHP and standard with LSD. There is a Hondat ECU upgrade that puts the power up to 240BHP. This is the work of Joe Curry and Hondat for the Lotus Elise/Exige K20A conversion.
http://www.prototyperacing.com/k20kit.htm
More from our very own Honda Tech on this?
Regardless, this will be one QUICK x1/9 by any measure.
Bernice
Matt Brannon - Midwest Bayless
Mad.Matt
Hi Rupunzell,
Thanks for the additional info on the Honda stuff. Yes, there are a myriad of K20 and matching transmission variants with a variety of torque curves, horsepower numbers, and gearing.
The JDM engines often offer an integral LSD but a very high final drive (4.7:10. Certain US-spec cars with the K20 series have a lower final drive but most do not have the integral LSD.
Steve H. reworked the gearbox fitting a 4.0 final drive and a Quaiffe LSD into it.
The K20As are rated around 220HP, the K20Z series motors are a bit lower, around 200. What is tricky about these engines is the ECU/electronics associated with them. There are a myriad of variations of ECU and stock engine/drivetrain functions, and not much is interchangable with certain engines and transmissions.
We still have a lot to learn, fortunately we have some very good tuners here who are willing to help educate us on the nuiances of tweaking the electronics depending on the model of engine/trans in-hand.
With regards to the question on the lower engine mount cradle, we don't forsee any major issues. It is not bearing any major vertical load, that is handled by the side mounts. The engine will hang in the car by its side mounts only if needed. The cradle is acting as a torque suppressor primarily and fastens to the engine block where an original torque suppressor mount was located. It spreads the torque load over both pick-up points and the rear factory crossmember mount (we are still using those captive well-nuts in the rear), and is only assuming a portion of the torque as we have a fourth (rear) mount which that acts as a torque cushion as well.
In hindsight, we'll probably do something slightly different on successive jobs, as it really crowded the routing of hoses and cables.
-M
Thanks for the additional info on the Honda stuff. Yes, there are a myriad of K20 and matching transmission variants with a variety of torque curves, horsepower numbers, and gearing.
The JDM engines often offer an integral LSD but a very high final drive (4.7:10. Certain US-spec cars with the K20 series have a lower final drive but most do not have the integral LSD.
Steve H. reworked the gearbox fitting a 4.0 final drive and a Quaiffe LSD into it.
The K20As are rated around 220HP, the K20Z series motors are a bit lower, around 200. What is tricky about these engines is the ECU/electronics associated with them. There are a myriad of variations of ECU and stock engine/drivetrain functions, and not much is interchangable with certain engines and transmissions.
We still have a lot to learn, fortunately we have some very good tuners here who are willing to help educate us on the nuiances of tweaking the electronics depending on the model of engine/trans in-hand.
With regards to the question on the lower engine mount cradle, we don't forsee any major issues. It is not bearing any major vertical load, that is handled by the side mounts. The engine will hang in the car by its side mounts only if needed. The cradle is acting as a torque suppressor primarily and fastens to the engine block where an original torque suppressor mount was located. It spreads the torque load over both pick-up points and the rear factory crossmember mount (we are still using those captive well-nuts in the rear), and is only assuming a portion of the torque as we have a fourth (rear) mount which that acts as a torque cushion as well.
In hindsight, we'll probably do something slightly different on successive jobs, as it really crowded the routing of hoses and cables.
-M
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avusblue98
True Classic
Beautiful work
Clean, well thought out - love the fact that you kept the original car as much as possible, little cutting, no boy-racer body kits. Also really like that you and the owner had a clear vision for this: a 'modern' X, an X with an engine more worthy of the chassis. What's brought me back to the X after over 20 years is that there really hasn't been a 'modern' replacement for the X, at least not since the MR2 went away. The Elise, of course, but it's at a price point that's not really middle class anymore, seems to me. When the X was introduced, mid-engined design was barely a decade old in F-1 cars; the expectation was that there would be a continued progression of affordable sports cars - you'd think by now there'd be 2-litre V-8's of 300hp in an X-like car for $25k. So anyway, I'm currently collecting parts for a Toyota 4ag transplant - I know the engine, and if at 165hp for a JDM 20v with 6spd it's a bit 'less-than' than your K20R, it also costs considerably less, judging from a scan of eBay's offerings. But don't think I won't remain jealous. I mean, 240hp, damn. - Kent
Clean, well thought out - love the fact that you kept the original car as much as possible, little cutting, no boy-racer body kits. Also really like that you and the owner had a clear vision for this: a 'modern' X, an X with an engine more worthy of the chassis. What's brought me back to the X after over 20 years is that there really hasn't been a 'modern' replacement for the X, at least not since the MR2 went away. The Elise, of course, but it's at a price point that's not really middle class anymore, seems to me. When the X was introduced, mid-engined design was barely a decade old in F-1 cars; the expectation was that there would be a continued progression of affordable sports cars - you'd think by now there'd be 2-litre V-8's of 300hp in an X-like car for $25k. So anyway, I'm currently collecting parts for a Toyota 4ag transplant - I know the engine, and if at 165hp for a JDM 20v with 6spd it's a bit 'less-than' than your K20R, it also costs considerably less, judging from a scan of eBay's offerings. But don't think I won't remain jealous. I mean, 240hp, damn. - Kent
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
Thanks for the credit Matt.
It was both an honor and priviledge to be involved with this project. The problem the RSX transmission has when dropped in an X1/9 is the OE gearing is intended for 17" or 18" wheels/tires. Translate that gearing down to a tire that is only about 22" in diameter and you have an excessively short final drive.
The 4.00 gear gives the car a more reasonable cruise rpm while still retaining reasonable ratios for the rest of the gearset.
As Matt noted, the diff was fitted with a Quaiffe LSD. Quaiffe makes a very high quality torsen type (automatic torque biasing) diff.
The complete six speed ready to be buttoned up:
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
Swap Options
I have thought for some time that the JDM 20 valve 4AGE would make an excellent swap for an X1/9. The package should fit fairly easily and the engine's character and performance would be in keeping with the X1/9's character. Considering the availability of these engines/transmissions on ebay the potential is tempting.
The K20 is of course an awsome option. That motor is right at the top of the heap for power, weight and packaging. Yes, there are other options but none approach the potential of the K20. So with the K20 swap already nicely developed why re-invent the wheel?
The 20v 4AGE is cheaper considering the cost of the package but it doesn't make the power of the K20. I should know, my racecar has a 4AGE in it now.
I have thought for some time that the JDM 20 valve 4AGE would make an excellent swap for an X1/9. The package should fit fairly easily and the engine's character and performance would be in keeping with the X1/9's character. Considering the availability of these engines/transmissions on ebay the potential is tempting.
The K20 is of course an awsome option. That motor is right at the top of the heap for power, weight and packaging. Yes, there are other options but none approach the potential of the K20. So with the K20 swap already nicely developed why re-invent the wheel?
The 20v 4AGE is cheaper considering the cost of the package but it doesn't make the power of the K20. I should know, my racecar has a 4AGE in it now.
abec
Wil
great job. once the economy and my personal finaces settle a bit im getting another X and looking at a gsxr 1100 or 1300 hybusa swap
and for the guy that wants to put a 20v VW motor in one...why not just drop a VR6 in that bish
I have owned both a 2002 gti 1.8t and two 93 vr6 Corrados. The VR6 is great but just to heavy, if it had to be a VR though then its coming out of an r32... drool.
spiderrey
spiderrey
thats an awesome set up
gets me pumped up for my slow project. my stock honda motor, b16b, puts out 185 ponys. thats not to far from the k20. of course mine dosent have a six speed, just 5.i think my set up is also a little smaller and lighter. that k 20 does look sweet in there though.
i really need to busy on this thing, but works been so slow.
gets me pumped up for my slow project. my stock honda motor, b16b, puts out 185 ponys. thats not to far from the k20. of course mine dosent have a six speed, just 5.i think my set up is also a little smaller and lighter. that k 20 does look sweet in there though.
i really need to busy on this thing, but works been so slow.
autox19
True Classic
b16 info
that is the swap I am currently on. anyway you can email me the powerpoint?
Odie
Autox19@autox19.com
that is the swap I am currently on. anyway you can email me the powerpoint?
Odie
Autox19@autox19.com
TonyK
True Classic
Mods and Money.
Matt, just wanted to say nice looking job done here.
For a person that does the odd modification or retro part I know the amount of time that goes into a project like this. There will always be more time than there will be money coming. Then there is the ooops that crop up that take more time and head scratching to figure out why then the time to correct it. The first one is the hard one and will take 4 times the time required to do, the next gets better and if you make it to #10 everything will flow in a timely matter. Being an electician and changing my X just to Megsquirt has been a challenge. I could do the wiring quick and dirty and hope everything works out, then trouble shooting will be a nightmare if it doesn't work. As Mike Mittlestead commented, the first one is art, the next is work. I will disagree with him just a bit, as the next one is a challenge to do quicker and better than the first and until the challenge is gone, to me it is still art.
Well done, a great job and post.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
Matt, just wanted to say nice looking job done here.
For a person that does the odd modification or retro part I know the amount of time that goes into a project like this. There will always be more time than there will be money coming. Then there is the ooops that crop up that take more time and head scratching to figure out why then the time to correct it. The first one is the hard one and will take 4 times the time required to do, the next gets better and if you make it to #10 everything will flow in a timely matter. Being an electician and changing my X just to Megsquirt has been a challenge. I could do the wiring quick and dirty and hope everything works out, then trouble shooting will be a nightmare if it doesn't work. As Mike Mittlestead commented, the first one is art, the next is work. I will disagree with him just a bit, as the next one is a challenge to do quicker and better than the first and until the challenge is gone, to me it is still art.
Well done, a great job and post.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
Nicely Done
Big thumbs up for you on this one. I know I have not been posting much, but I have been reading. Between the end of high school football, a new ABA team up here, a NCAA hoops tournament, and the whole Palin and Stevens hoopla, I have had very little time to work on my X since the snow started to fall (5 more inches last night!), but your K20 transplant is very nicely done, and I assume that as you do more, they will look nicer and nicer.
I was a VW GTi owner between my first and second X, and had big plans of pulling the 1.8 out of my 84 and throwing a G60 from a Corrado into the engine bay, then when I first started working on my X while I still had the GTi, I was thinking that would probably fit with a little shoe horning. I have always been a fan of the Honda engines because they produce good power, rev real high, like an engine should, and aftermarket add ons is plentiful. I would guess that a tweaked K20 with a turbo could start creeping up to the 400hp mark. I would be happy with around 300hp. I see the price of this being around the price of a new 500 in the UK. The ground control coilovers and tires and wheels alone are probably in the $3-4K range. And to do it right, with the big D body kit...man, it would be a hoot to pull up to a streetlight with a Vette or a 360 and dust them......
Again....nicely done.
The only thing I think I would want to change is the valve cover thing. Instead of the big Honda name or logo, I would love to see someone develop one that says Fiat powered by Honda.
Big thumbs up for you on this one. I know I have not been posting much, but I have been reading. Between the end of high school football, a new ABA team up here, a NCAA hoops tournament, and the whole Palin and Stevens hoopla, I have had very little time to work on my X since the snow started to fall (5 more inches last night!), but your K20 transplant is very nicely done, and I assume that as you do more, they will look nicer and nicer.
I was a VW GTi owner between my first and second X, and had big plans of pulling the 1.8 out of my 84 and throwing a G60 from a Corrado into the engine bay, then when I first started working on my X while I still had the GTi, I was thinking that would probably fit with a little shoe horning. I have always been a fan of the Honda engines because they produce good power, rev real high, like an engine should, and aftermarket add ons is plentiful. I would guess that a tweaked K20 with a turbo could start creeping up to the 400hp mark. I would be happy with around 300hp. I see the price of this being around the price of a new 500 in the UK. The ground control coilovers and tires and wheels alone are probably in the $3-4K range. And to do it right, with the big D body kit...man, it would be a hoot to pull up to a streetlight with a Vette or a 360 and dust them......
Again....nicely done.
The only thing I think I would want to change is the valve cover thing. Instead of the big Honda name or logo, I would love to see someone develop one that says Fiat powered by Honda.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
The Honda K20 series are a very capable series of drive trains and quite sophisticated and very well engineered in many, many ways. The ECU controls far more than Fuel injection, it's part of the variable double tunes intake and variable cam timing used on both intake and exhaust. I spent a lot of time researching alternative drive trains for the X and the K20 series is my current favorite. It's also lightweight for what it is and is capable of delivering power wise and size and transaxle configuration and after market parts. There is a lot going for the K20. One can also put the K20 cylinder head on a K24 block and make a "stroker 2.4 liter", then there are the turbo and supercharger kits... Realistically, Honest 200 BHP in an X makes it a very quick car indeed and like I mention all the time, where can one really use any car like this full throttle 100% of the time except may be at a track event. The stop light Grand Prix might be fun for a few seconds, but then what? I think driving a nice stock X on a winding, quiet back road is far more fun and satastfying than A 500+ BHP x1/9 at Stop Light Grand Prix. There is a lot more than just power that makes a car great. It's just my point of view on this topic. Bernice
