Will motor oil mix with gear oil in tranny?

That's interesting.

I'd never heard of using ATF (assuming that stands for automatic transmission fluid) in a manual transmission.
It sounds like a little too much of a radical approach for me to use it though.
Still I appreciate the input, and I always enjoy learning new things about what people have tried and what is possible with cars.
I didn't see anything *wrong* with the concept, it's just that I'm afraid that the whole time I was driving my subconscious mind would be going OMG-imdrivingwithATFinmyManualTransmission-isthatSafe?!?OMG-imdrivingwithATFinmyManualTransmission-isthatSafe?!? over, and over, and over again, so I really want to go with something I know I can feel comfortable with on all levels;)
Thanks again for the input:D
 
Purdy... If you don't install MTL you are missing out...

Redline is one brand of products that actually does what they say they will.

No need for MT90 unless you race. 4 quarts will fill a 5 speed easily with a bit left over.

Use it and within 100 miles you won't believe the difference~!
 
Well, another cheap alternatve would be to switch to ATF instead of gear oil. Ford did that on their mazda based transmissions in their Escort and Zx2. The Ford Escape, with the same model transmission, used gear oil however, so I think this is a testimony that a thicker lube will protect the parts under high stress, but the ATF is a perfectly acceptable lubricant whan the cars are not being pressed.

I just changed out the ATF (Mercon v) in my F-250 PSD with ZF 6 speed... I'm currently trying Pennzoil syncromesh (like GM syncromesh) as it's a little thicker than ATF.... so far so good... ok to go a hair thicker than thinner. Some guys use motor oil in those boxes, but at that point you're a test pilot. MERCON 5 is rated for use in SOME gearboxes (not all). I might try MTL next or a mix 50:50... but I digress.. fiat boxes need thicker stuff.

Redline MTL / MT90 works so stinking good it's worth it.. especially at 3/4 quarts... My ZF takes 6 quarts and that's when it starts getting pricy (I won't comment on 16 quart oil changes).
 
it sounds like you are on your way but here's some additional thoughts.

Nobody has specifically replied because not many folks (myself included) know if a 20/50 oil will work exactly. The viscosity is in the right ballpark because gear oil and motor oil viscosities are different. I think a 75/80 is about 30 wt motor oil but I'd need to google it.

If you do use 20/50 I assume you will use the cheapest dino oil you can find.

Friction is important in transmissions, engine oil generally tries for the least amount of friction and is concerned with "cleanlieness" and removing carbon deposits, preventing corrosion, and maintaining viscosity. In motor oil there are also now less or no ZDDP or other additives. Gear oil specifically manual transmission fluid is carefully engineered to provide the appropriate level of friction so the syncro's engage and to resist the extreme pressures between gears while preventing metal to metal contact. GL4 gear oil specifically has a formulation to be easy on brass syncro's (which I believe our car has). GL5 oils can be too slippery and can (over time) corrode brass syncro's.

I don't know why you insist on 20/50, but if it was just to get the car going I would run some cheap ATF through it to "flush it" followed by proper GL4 gear oil.

I once added Redline shockproof gear oil to a transaxle not knowing any better, it didn't shift worth a damn immediately after that and it never got good again.
 
20w50 is probably too thick. Just looking at the Redline website their 20w50 is almost twice as thick at 100 degrees Celsius as MTL and substantially thicker than even MT90. Which means that at operating temperature it is much thicker than GL1 as well.
 
Nobody has specifically replied because not many folks (myself included) know if a 20/50 oil will work exactly. The viscosity is in the right ballpark because gear oil and motor oil viscosities are different. I think a 75/80 is about 30 wt motor oil but I'd need to google it.

I'll answer that 20w50 will work. I used Castrol 20w50 in my 128's 4-speed trans (basically the same unit as an X1/9) for many years with no issues. I made sure to change the oil every year or so (depending on mileage/use). I specifically used Castrol brand simply because I already had this same brand/grade of oil on hand, since I use Castrol 20w50 in my 128 & 850 engines (ie: oil was bought by the case). Oddly enough, other folks have also singled out Castrol as the brand to use, though I don't know their reasons why.

After running with 20w50 in my 128's trans for years, I was eventually able to find the "proper" GL-1 at a local NAPA store, & am running with that now (no issues). The GL-1 turned out to be slightly less expensive than 20w50, too! :)


Gear oil specifically manual transmission fluid is carefully engineered to provide the appropriate level of friction so the syncro's engage and to resist the extreme pressures between gears while preventing metal to metal contact. GL4 gear oil specifically has a formulation to be easy on brass syncro's (which I believe our car has). GL5 oils can be too slippery and can (over time) corrode brass syncro's.

The GL-4 & GL-5 oils I saw at all of my local auto parts stores turned out to be EP-rated, which is why I didn't use them & went with the basic GL-1 instead. As far as corrosives go, one of the additives in EP oils is sulfur, which is what gives the oil "that smell" & also what can/will eat any brass internal hardware on older transmissions (like my Fiat 600).
 
I once added Redline shockproof gear oil to a transaxle not knowing any better, it didn't shift worth a damn immediately after that and it never got good again.

I use Redline HD Shockproof in my Volvo manual transaxle, but it is a modern trans with no brass in the synchros, and is to specifically address the gear rattle that occurs when you don't use the dampened flywheels they are designed to operate with. For this, it performs very well. I would never consider using it in an old transaxle such as that in the X1/9.

I don't remember what I put in my X1/9 when I did the clutch some years ago, likely whatever was being recommended 4 or so years ago...
 
Sorry if I never actually posted the reason

I thought I'd written it, but I often end up deleting what I wrote and start over trying to sort of "edit things down" because I'm usually so bad at writing TOO much info.
Anyway, the reason I originally was going to use "Castrol 20w50" specifically, was that it had specifically been named on a page I found here at xweb.
Originally I simply did not understand enough about the "why" involved to make my own choice, so I had to look for something specific.
here is the page that I saw the castrol 20w50 mentioned:
http://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php?title=Transmission#Gearbox_Oil
And here was the particular section (from that page) I got the info from:
"
Gearbox Oil

There are a number of recommended choices for gearbox lubrication:

  • GL1 was the FIAT factory specification. It is still available, and if you just want to stick with the original recommendation, you can. However, lubricant technology has improved a fair amount in the intervening years, and many people are reporting better results with newer synthetics.
  • RedLine MTL or MT90 is a well-regarded modern synthetic. Last I heard, Steve Hoelscher's warranty on rebuilt transmissions required that you use RedLine.
  • Castrol 20w50 motor oil. This sounds wrong because the viscosity is all wrong, but motor oils use a different viscosity scale than gearbox oils, and in fact a 20w50 motor oil is about right."
As I said, I didn't know anything at the time about the "why" that was involved, so I didn't even know if another brand of 20w50 could be used or what.
So, it wasn't really that I was trying to "insist" on castrol specifically, rather, it was the only one I'd seen specifically mentioned at the time.
Plus I happened to have already bought one quart of it before I'd posted the original message.
The reason I posted wanting to know if the "regular motor oil" like the castrol could be added to the old style standard "stinky gear oil" was that I'd had the tranny start to drip while I was in the middle of something else.
Basically, I had my hands full at the time.

Literally.
As in, I was holding up the fuel tank trying to push it back up into the car when I suddenly felt something slippery on the far side of the tank (towards the center of the car).
When I smelled what had gotten on my fingers, it had *that smell* of old style gear oil. It's rather distinctive.
At that point I started looking all around for evidence of leakage, and saw that there were some drips coming off of a cable next to the tank (maybe the speedo cable?) and then when I looked above/behind me towards the back of the car (being on my back), I saw that the rail passing under the engine/trans looked wet with several dark drips hanging off of it.

Stuck my fingers up there, and it too smelled like old gear oil.
Lastly I noticed the shift linkage looked a little damp and/or shiney around the boot, but I'm not sure if it was actually wet or dripping, it just sort of stood out because very little is shiney under the car.
I was in the middle of a planned push to finish up several jobs that day. re-installing the fuel tank, reinstalling the fuel pump/filters, pulling the starter to clean/test/reinstall, and cleanup of the last of the electrical grounds and connections I'd seen that might be problematic, all in a big effort to reassemble enough to make another attempt at starting the car.
Since I already had so much on my plate I was loath to stop right in the middle of things unless it was absolutely necessary.
So, Since I already had one quart of 20w50, I thought maybe I could get by with that for the startup tests *if* it was compatible with what was already in the transaxle.
That was when I decided to run in and find out if it would cause a problem to add it in with the regular gear oil.
So I left the tank hanging halfway out of the car and ran in here.
spent a fair amount of time going in circles with my research and was getting nowhere, so I decided to just go ahead and make a quick post and ask if it would mix without a problem, figuring that if somebody happened to know, then maybe there would be an answer by the time I got the tank mounted, and if not, then I would either continue to reassemble the car or go back to looking up the answer myself.
I hadn't gotten to the point of looking up how to check the transmission oil level yet, because how much was still in there wouldn't really come into play until I'd gotten the car back together enough to attempt to start it.
I was projecting to be at that point some time in the evening, but the tank turned into such a pain I got way behind and didn't finish with the tank till after dark.
So I thought I needed the information in a bit of a hurry because I had such big plans for the day, but then it turned out that I didn't need the information so soon after all.
Also the wife's car started having a problem so I had to mess with it for a while, worked through the night on various things, but then my dad showed up the next morning and needed me to help do a marathon of yard work trailer loading for the dump etc which, combined with an accidental misjudgement with my blood sugar levels blew me out so bad within a couple of hours that I ended up pretty much useless for the next few days.

So the whole original need to *hurry* got completely blown out of the water fairly early on.
However, all of the additional information everyone sent ended up helping me to learn a lot of the "why" involved with the various oils being used in these boxes.
After all, when this started, I didn't even know what EP stood for, so I did not know how to avoid getting a fluid that contained it.
Anyway, I'm not sure if that directly answers your questions, but I thought maybe it'd be best just to go ahead and fill in more info about the whole situation that lead up to me asking if the fluid would mix in the first place.
 
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I will, eventually.

Don't worry, I will use MTL:)
I just can't use it right away because I .
Keep in mind, this car isn't actually driving down the street yet.
My primary goal at the moment is getting the car running more than a few moments at a time.
Also the clutch master cylinder is still locked up, so the car cannot be shifted while it is running at this point.
However, after the car was jacked up, I discovered that the rear wheels want to spin/turn when the car is turned over, *even though* the car is in neutral.
Putting a piece of wood between the wheel and fenderwell stopped the spinning, so I really don't know what is going on with that.
I guess that's just one more thing I have to look up. It's hard to get anywhere because every time I try to accomplish one thing, I end up finding 2 or 3 things I need to look up/research/learn more about.
1 step forward = 2 steps back. lol
anyway, thanks for your input:)
 
Sorry I haven't replied on this yet

I started to type a reply a couple of different times, but each time I'd be part way through, something would come up.
Anyway, I filled in a bit of the background in another post a few minutes ago, but basically, yeah, there was some leakage.
It only just started while I was in the middle of re-installing the fuel tank.
Originally, my thought was that maybe I started the leak due to a moment of indiscretion I had the other day...
Basically, after a particularly hard day of work, sometime around 3 a.m. I decided to take a little break, took off the top, climbed up into the car...
And pretended I was driving.
Let my mind drift, shifted through some gears, imagined what it might be like to drive with the top down again.
Purely a silly/dumb sort of kid thing to do. Sort of like when I was 6 years old and climbed in to my dad's sunbeam tiger and pretended to be driving, chasing the car that was parked in front of me.
This time, however, I wasn't making engine sounds and pretending to be dodging bullets and shooting at bad guys.
I did notice the shifting felt a bit odd though, which made me wonder if it was out of adjustment.
So when it started dripping, I was really sort of horrified and/or embarrassed that the only thing I could remember doing lately related to the transmission was shifting while pretending to drive. ~~X.x
However, since that point, it has occurred to me that I *also* had to jack up the car a fair amount higher in the rear because I was having a hard time getting the tank back in.
So I think there's at least a pretty fair chance that the reason it just suddenly started leaking while I was installing the tank had something to do with how high I ended up jacking the back.
I could easily be wrong though.
Also, whatever that cable is near the center that had some oil dripping off of it (I'm thinking maybe it's the speedometer cable) sustained a fair amount of trauma because the tank kept hitting it as I was trying to get it in, so I may have ended up bumping that a bit too much and caused a leak.
Really not sure yet because I haven't been able to get back under the car yet.
Anyway, hopefully that info along with the other posts I made tonight will fill in the gaps caused by me not typing a full account of the situation in the original post.
 
A little scared of ATF

I was kind of wondering what to do about vestiges of the old oil when I go to drain it. Like whether I should try to flush it out with something or what, since it's probably got EP stuff in it right now.
ATF sort of scares me though.
Partially because of a purely mental block that says "automatic transmission fluid only belongs in automatic transmissions" which is based on nothing more than a little voice in the back of my head.
But then there was another post I read recently when I was trying to learn about these kinds of things.
It was on this page:
http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?posts/21619#poststop/
and here is the specific excerpt:
"You can definately experiment on your own at some cost or take advantage of our learnings. In fact, if you're willing, I would encourage it. Steve Hoelscher himself tried straight ATF at one time and found it worked well... but the extreme abrasive quailities in ATF (for clutch adheasion) did a number on the gears themselves, relative to wear. HA! I appreciated his attempts... and am gonna just take his word for it... HAHAHA!"
Of course, I've seen plenty of posts that say ATF is fine, so I dunno.
Really, for now I just want to get the EP stuff out, then get something else back in that is cheap enough that I can afford it, but will protect the tranny enough that it won't be damaged during engine start/run testing.
I did at least broach the MTL subject with the wife tonight. Not telling her I need it right away, more like some time in the future. Just sort of explaining the whole transmission oil thing a bit, getting her sort of prepared for the fact that I'm going to be asking for it at some point.
Sort of "Wallet Lubrication". lol
I still think I shouldn't put anything expensive in there till I make sure the transmission actually works though.
Won't really know that until I can get the engine to stay running, and fix the clutch master cylinder.
 
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Hadn't really thought of the *lack* of transmission friendly additives in regular motor oil. I'd mainly been trying to avoid the EP additives.
I guess I could actually look to see what gear oil choices they have available at walmart now that I know a bit more about what to look for and what to avoid.
Some my decision making process is really just based on simplicity.
Choices are great in the right situation, but my brain tends to start having some problems when faced with two or more similar choices.
Thus the need to sometimes actually limit my options to a certain extent.
So even if I were to decide to use and auto tranny fluid, I'd still have to narrow things down because there are just too many brands and types to choose from for my brain to be able to cope with it.
In other words, I'd have to narrow it way down, to maybe a couple of brands etc before I could seriously start considering it.
For now I can really only consider or discuss the "theory" of using ATF.
Hey, it's actually a lot better than it used to be. I used to have a brain seizure whenever I'd try to look over a menu to decide what I wanted to eat. Sister or wife would have to order for me. lol
 
Sorry for rambling posts.

Wow, I was just skimming back over this page and man, I did some excessively long posts.
One really sounded like some sort of rant when I just read it, but it certainly wasn't meant to sound that way at all.
If anyone took it that way, I do apologize.
I've never had any reason to be angry at anything anyone has said here.
One thing I've never liked about text based communication is that things like body language, tone of voice, facial expressions, etc, are all *missing*. When you talk face to face, all those things act as extra layers of communication, so that no matter what words you are using, people can understand if you are joking or angry, sad, happy, serious, or being sarcastic or even just rambling/mumbling when you are tired.
For reference, I think these forums, and the people of the community are wonderful. So if it sounds like I'm saying something that doesn't go along with that frame of mind, then the way it sounds probably isn't the way I meant it.
I do get frustrated at myself and my limitations sometimes, but overall, I'm a pretty happy guy. really. lol
Anyway, if I sounded angry or anything like that, I do apologize. I really didn't mean it that way.
 
I don't think smell alone will tell you the current stuff in the box is EP, GL1 smells too. I remember someone writing about flushing the box with kerosene to purge. I just drained what was in mine and filled with MTL. When I went in for the clutch, I drained it in a clean container and later, put it right back in. If I were you I'd wait until the car was level, check the box oil level (should be to the bottom of the top fill hole) top off with 20w-50 motor oil (unless you already have some GL1). Get the car running and driving and revisit this later. It's not an issue when the car isn't moving anyway. The leak could be from where the shift rod goes into the box but I would wait to diagnose that until later too. Be nice to fix the leak before the expensive stuff goes in though. Could be once it's back on all 4s and everything is hanging where it should, the leak will be gone.
 
I just fixed a MK1 VW box that had gl5 added to it and driven for a while and was grinding into 3rd and 4th.

I had a gallon of Dexron III walmart grade in the shed so I drained the mobil1 GL5 the owner had said he added, I then added 2 quarts of ATF, ran it and shifted on jack stands for a few minutes, then drained that and added MTL-90

The results were nothing short of amazing.

It immediately started shifting better with ATF, and with the MTL and a short test drive the constant grinding was gone and shifts like butter.

now I went and re-read the original post and sorry for the redline commercials... obviusly the OP is short on funds based on the starter thread, so maybe redline stuff at $15/qt is not in the budget. If 20/50 or straight 30 works then why not try it? Maybe a quart of MERCON 5 and a quart of 20/50 motor oil would work quite nicely. It certainly wouldn't hurt anything for a little while ,but you will be much happier with a modern GL4. The only reason I say MERCON 5 is that it is the cover-fluid for MERCON III which is speced for some ford gearboxes (albiet they have different parts and tolerances).

I stand corrected, I forgot GL1 was for fiat xmissions, but that GL4 had in most cases replaced it and also in most cases did not have EP additives.

In all cases, I would venture that motor oil is better than GL5 gear oil available at your FLAPS
 
And here I was going to use the stinkiness of the oil as a good excuse to get rid of it:p
If the smell isn't a definite indication there's probably no way to know what's currently in there short of chemical analysis, and there wouldn't be much point in that since I'd be wanting to get rid of it anyway.
I might see what I've got out in the garage. I doubt I have any ATF to play with anyway because I think it all got used in the family's 90's caprice recently.
I really don't know what all is out there though.
I've been having to go through things out there to find out what I still have and/or can use, and what I no longer need and can get rid of.
Most of what I have is left over from when I was into auto repair and mechanics in the late 90's early 2000's before my brain got messed up.
After that I couldn't really use any of it until the last few years, so I'm really just lucky it never got like, sold off or something.
I must admit though, I'm warming up to the concept of using ATF near my tranny, if nothing else maybe to flush it.
I'm a bit slow to adjust to new concepts at times.
But trust me, I am actually listening to all of what people are saying, and I certainly appreciate all of the information, advice, and suggestions.
It just takes me a while to combine it all in my head. I'm somewhat slow;)
 
Yes the OP is very short on funds:)
That should change if I can get the car running though.
Mainly I was just trying to make sure the tranny doesn't get injured during engine testing.
The drips that started when I was reinstalling the tank, combined with having already seen that the wheels wanted to spin when the car was off of the ground (even though the car was in neutral) caused me to panic a bit because it seemed like that showed that the tranny was at least *partially* in use, and if it was going to continue leaking, all I had to add back in to keep the tranny at a safe level was the one quart of 20w50.
I actually *Do* appreciate the "speedline commercials" though, because up to that point, I knew very little about it, and although I'd basically originally just been looking for a quick sort of "yes or no is it safe to combine these two" the info you guys provided helped me to learn quite a bit more than I knew up to that point.
And what I've been able to read/research/understand since my original post has convinced me that I really *DO* want to put some MTL in there as soon as I get to the point where I can drive the car (or at least fairly soon after).
And I think I can ask for some MTL once I get the car on the road.
It's just that until I can basically *prove* to my family that this car can be driven, they are (probably quite reasonably) reluctant to put any more money into it.
So I'm sort of having to cut as many corners as possible until the car is drivable. After that point I should be able to get some regular funding.
 
Not sure if this has been covered...

combined with having already seen that the wheels wanted to spin when the car was off of the ground (even though the car was in neutral) caused me to panic a bit because it seemed like that showed that the tranny was at least *partially* in use,

But I'm pretty sure that behavior is fairly normal, as long as you can easily stop them by hand.

Pete
 
The wheel spinning in neutral...

I've seen before and can usually, easily be stopped by hand. Not unusual... but in your case, it may have something to do with your clutch issue.

Hope things go a little smoother for you soon.
 
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